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I've been playing my 76 GJS a lot recently and find the tuners more and more awkward to handle. Now i wonder if there are alternatives available which don't require drilling of new holes. Thanks in advance for suggestions.
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03-01-2022 11:57 AM
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Kluson 3 Per Side Vintage Diecast Sealfast Tuning Machines Be carefull to confirm the shaft size. Regardless they can be retrofitted, I'm sure but may not be plug and play.
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What do you mean awkward to handle? Do they work fine and smooth keeping guitar in tune?
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Good to know.
Originally Posted by skiboyny
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They don't work fine and smooth, it takes patience to adjust them, having to go forth and back until the tuning is right. But once in tune they are quite stable, so it is not too urgent Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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Well I would want tuners that worked well and as they should so despite the high price of the replacement I think I would swap them out It is a Gibson JS and they are not making them anymore. Just keep the originals. Possibly take them apart and re-grease them if they are not worn. This can be done I believe on them I have done it on old Grover's with the stairstep buttons.
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Aren't they 12:1 ?? Originally Posted by JazzNote
We're all used to modern 18:1.
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Not talking down to you, don't be offended but; You are dropping below pitch and then always tuning up to pitch right? Never loosening a string "down to pitch". Originally Posted by JazzNote
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An old thread started by Campusfive (Jonathan Stout) mentioned problems with seal fast tuners from the late 30s and wanting to replace them. I think those are the same tuners or at least the same footprint as are on your JS. There's a maker in Canada that apparently has open back tuners with the same footprint:
Single Gear Tuners - Rodgers Tuning Machines
It would take a little research but these might be drop in replacements.
also, it may be possible to clean and lubricate your existing tuners and get them to work again, as deacon Mark mentioned. Stew Mac has a video on YouTube about this, different type of tuner but the process would have strong similarities:
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Yes, aggravating as hardware can be, it is def. worth trying to re-invigorate the tuners if possible.
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The issue is when the grease dries up it's metal on metal worm gears. Used for a prolonged period in that state they'll be ruined. Someone mentioned taking them apart cleaning and repacking w grease but I've never heard of this being done successfully w Sealfasts, they're not made to be disassembled unlike some old Grover Imperials.
I'd find another vintage set or drop in a set of reissues.
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Yes, certainly the goal is to be able to tune the guitar fast and accurate and for now i'm checking the options. As stated, one of my main concern is that i hesitate drilling new holes. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
I don't know about the ratio, but believe that this is not the problem. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
Maybe i didn't express myself clear enough - what i meant was forth and back several times before getting it right, which is not the case with my other guitars. Originally Posted by whiskey02
Thanks Cunamara :-) Originally Posted by Cunamara
Thanks Wintermoon :-) Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Thanks for the great news! Originally Posted by skiboyny
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WD has reponded fast to my question:
Q:
By looking for replacement tuners for my 76 Gibson Johnny Smith i came across these:
Kluson Sealfast Diecast Tuning Machines 3 Per Side - Hardware & Parts from WD Music UK
Do they fit the existing holes perfectly (screws & bushing) as in the attached picture?
A:
Yes, WD reintroduces this tuner using their original predecessors to create the tooling and footprint from to assure you a drop-in replacement for your original vintage instrument. The only thing to note is that the Kluson Sealfast tuning machines have tight tolerances between the size of the mounting screw O.D. and the I.D. of the mounting screw holes. We recommend that before installing these tuning machines on your instrument that you run the mounting screw through the mounting hole and then back it out. This will enable the screw to more easily pass through the brass mounting hole eyelet for smooth installation. Apart from that, it should drop straight in without making any modifications to your guitar.
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I've used Sperzels for many years and had never given a thought to the gear ratio until I went to their website to see how to order them with larger posts and holes for 7th strings. They list their gear ratio as 12:1, and I knew that many "modern" tuners are described as 18:1. So I asked why they still use 12:1 when I last called to order more custom tuners. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
I was told by Bob that the spec'ed ratio is irrelevant, because tuners from different makers have different diameter posts and gears. The linear distance the string is pulled (i.e. how much it is tightened) will be determined in large part by the diameter of the part of the post that's under the wrap. The thicker the post, the more the string will tighten for every degree the shaft is turned. And the larger the gear on the base of the shaft relative to the diameter of the post, the higher the effective ratio will be - what matters is the linear ratio of distance turned to distance over which the string is pulled around the shaft. Unless you know the exact sizes of all the moving parts, the gear ratio itself is not very informative.
The ratio of the diameter of the shaft under the string wrap to the diameter of the gear at the base of the shaft affects how precisely you can tune far more than the ratio of internal tuner gear sizes. What really matters is how much the string is tightened for every degree you turn the knob. So a smaller diameter shaft under the string wrap effectively increases the numerical "tuning ratio" and a 12:1 that's well designed and built can feel better and tune more precisely than one with a numerically higher gear ratio but a smaller driven gear and a larger shaft.
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Thank you for your highly-detailed and factual post. I'm here to learn. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And that's spot-on for our OP, and why I made my comment. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Antique bullseye SealFasts have the largest-diameter posts you will find for steel strings. And the ratio is 12:1.
That combines to make a "fast" tuning machine -- I am betting more sensitive than most modern tuners. Perhaps a little more sensitive than our OP might be used to. Easier to over-shoot, if I'm not paying attention.
. . . so there I was at my second gig ever with my 1967 Johnny Smith "CES" guitar. And the *(%$ g-string tuner strips out. Lots o' luck finding an antique replacement in gold that did not involve sacrifice of a body-part. I was able to get a nickel tuner off Reverb for "only" $50 for the one unit. At a distance, from the front, you don't notice the difference in color.
(Fortunately I was on the gig doubling guitar & upright bass, so I got to play and not just sulk.)
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A bigger shaft makes it more sensitive in that there is a greater effect on string tension from a lesser turn of the key than would be the case with a smaller post. But the key has less leverage, so it takes more effort to turn the key. If the tuner is in good condition, and is well made and lubricated, it will be “faster” but will feel good and allow fine adjustment by an equally sensitive guitarist. Originally Posted by Sam Sherry
But if it’s not well made and well lubricated (especially if the mechanism is corroded, worn, or otherwise rough), the increase in necessary force will result in overshoot and it will be difficult to tune finely. This is also a setup for stripping a gear or breaking a tooth.
But……as I recall, those Sealfast tuners are hourglass shaped where the string wraps, and that area is as thin as standard Klusons. The effective diameter of the post for purposes of determining how “fast” it is (re tuning) is the diameter under the string. It doesn’t matter how fat the post is except under the wrap. So I don’t think this would be an issue for the OP. I could be wrong - I haven’t played a guitar with those tuners in decades.
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Actually, the tuning posts on Sealfasts have a significantly larger diameter than those on small Klusons. They are also slightly larger than the posts of Grover Imperials.
Here, as mentioned above:
Kluson 3 Per Side Vintage Diecast Sealfast Tuning Machines
"We have enhanced the gear ratio to 15:1 which gives a tighter feel while maintaining the original 5/16 inch post diameter for optimum performance."
I have a complete set of original NOS Kluson Sealfast tuners if anyone want to buy them for a correct restoration, for silly money. And I also have two extra NOS ones (I'll check to see which side they fit) if anyone needs a replacement or two.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-03-2022 at 06:27 AM.
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Schaller was re-making them for a while under its GrandTune series. They were taken off the market and I have now been made aware that Kluson is offering them. Thanks, Ski, for the heads up. Originally Posted by skiboyny
On the other hand, Klaus Scheller Gitarrenmechanikan (not Schaller) makes very nice bespoke tuning machines for all styles of guitars. Worth checking out.
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If you click your link and look at the pics, you’ll see that the post is machined thinner in a band near the tip, where the string hole is located. If you wind the string only enough to lock it down within this recess, and no string is heaped onto the shaft above or below it, the effective tuning ratio is higher than if you wrap it so many times that the outermost turn has a diameter equal to or greater than the main part of the post. Originally Posted by Hammertone
Doing the math shows that the extra width changes the actual ratio by enough to change tuning speed and leverage. The fact that it’s not noticed by most players is also the reason that most won’t notice a difference between 12:1 and 15:1 in the gears.
It takes less than 2 turns to lock an E6 onto a tuning post within that band, and few enough on the thinner strings to keep them within it as well. I could be wrong, but I think this will fit comfortably in that narrow band. Heaping multiple turns on each other or winding/wrapping it so many turns that the outermost turn has a diameter greater than the wide part of the post results in heavier and less stable tuning. As long as the tuners are high quality and in good shape, wrapping the string so many times that it runs onto the full width shaft will probably not even be noticeable to most players. But it does reduce the effective tuning ratio and can cause slippage.
Most good tuners are narrowed where the string wraps. A fat shaft gets more support from bigger bearing area, so it will be more stable and feel better when tuning. But it would also make tuning effort and fine tuning harder if the string area weren’t reduced in diameter. Here are two Gotoh models:
Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 03-03-2022 at 09:45 AM.
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The new Klusons have arrived :-)
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For a change I can experience the luxury of new strings AND new tuners.
The replacement Klusons fit well, except for the screws which came with them. Their diameter is a little larger than one would expect, but enough for them to get stuck in the holes of the tuners. Physical force would be required to stick them through, so I ended up using the old screws, which are with visibly smaller diameter.
So what WD calls "tight tolerances" turns out to be screws a little too large, at least from the point of view of someone who ist used to products that are perfectly designed. As the new screws would slightly enlarge the holes in the headstock, using them would make it questionable to go back to the old tuners with the original screws.
The tuning is now much smoother than with the old Klusons, comfortable as with the tuners of the newer L5's and LeGrands.
I'm happy to have taken the effort, and thankful for all good advice I got here!
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Great to know these exist if need to replace and they are great tuners.
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Yes, great tuners and if they eventually get the screws right it will be just perfect. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
PS: I have sent a mail to WD and stated my opinion that they need to face the fact that the screws are to big, forward this info to the manufacturer, and tell them that a customer wants replacement screws which are of better match. Sometimes efforts like this are successful, sometimes not - I'm curious how it turns out ;-).Last edited by JazzNote; 03-11-2022 at 05:22 AM.
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