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03-21-2022 04:08 PM
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I think the method used in the experiment is reasonable. One shortcoming is the implicit (inaccurate) assumption that the string gauge only changes the tension. Heavier string gauge will also change the string mass and how the strings interact with the pickup magnets. But overall a good comparison, I think.
Last edited by Tal_175; 03-22-2022 at 04:30 PM.
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Like the guys approach but in the end don't think it addresses what's going on with your hands with different scale lengths. Since I tend to use the same string gauges and brands on 24.75" and 25.5" scale guitars they do feel an play a bit different. Like a 1/16" difference in nut width, it makes more difference than you would think.
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This technical lecture from Ralph Novak (Novax Guitars) is from a Guild of American Luthiers convention.
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I’m no math expert or luthier but to me the longer scale length seems more top and bottom frequencies and also easier to intonate.
But the ergonomics of the guitar design I think are what we relate to first and foremost.
And after owning way too many guitars since I was 13, now 64. I’ll tell you they pretty much nailed it the 1950’s And it wasn’t even guitarists who came up with them mostly, Lol!
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Everyone is different, but I’m finding that I really don’t like the sound or feel of 25.5 scale. Love 24.75. I have one 25.5 scale guitar left, a Tele, and I’m really considering dumping it. Life’s too short to be playing a guitar that you don’t enjoy.
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I have both scale-lengths (plus one that's 24.57"/624mm according to its spec page), but they're all different from each other in other respects so I can't really isolate the effect of scale-length on tone. I don't really notice the difference in feel, except maybe a slight difference in chords with with long stretches on lower frets.
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So just my opinion but when Gibson designed the Firebird. This is was an uncomfortable marriage of ergonomics, at least for me. It really feels like a longer scale, but actually isn’t.
Ernie Ball did just the opposite with their EVH guitar design. It feels shorter scale length , but isn’t. Not sure how others feel, But I’ve come full circle to to Fender and Gibsons 1950 s designs.
I think aside from some tweaks they pretty much found the formula.
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The relationship between pickup placement and scale length is also interesting. Of course in order to isolate the effect of the scale length, the ratio of (distance to the bridge) / (the scale length) must be kept the same. This also has an interesting implication that a given amount of change in the placement of the bridge pickup would have a much bigger effect than the same amount of change in the placement of the neck pickup.
However even when the ratio is preserved, the strings on the smaller scale guitar would have either lower tension or higher gauge (when tension is matched). So, the smaller scale guitar would still sound "warmer". I think that's what I hear in the video.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-23-2022 at 10:02 AM.
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I agree, the Flying V is the perfect guitar to play standing up. That’s what you meant by 1950s right?
Originally Posted by jads57
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Or sitting down, Lol! Actually the Parker Fly expensive ones we’re actually the first real update to the solid body in many years. I own several and subsequently sold them. They were just about Too Perfect, sans the neck pickup placement at 24 frets.
They really we’re the ideal studio guitar and ergonomically well designed guitar. They were ultimately too flat sounding and easy too play, Lol! But I grew up on Steve McQueen and like Cool Factor and that always has some issue!
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I had a few Parker Flys. Including two Mojo and a Jazz. I agree very flat sounding. Originally Posted by jads57
This same guy does a video claiming wood makes no difference. I think of those sterile sounding Flys and conclude it certainly does.
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Haven't done the video.
I have played a few guitars with 27 inch scale lengths and I thought they sounded great.
Wish I had picked up a Buckethead LP when they came out. The prices are crazy, now.
And Soloway quit making his 27 inch guitars just when I was thinking seriously about getting one.
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For years I assumed that 25.5 was harder to play because the frets were further apart. I preferred 24 3/4 every time I compared two guitars with those scales.
Then, I got a Yamaha Pacifica 012. 25.5 and feels easier to play than any of my 24 3/4 guitars. It's because the neck is smaller in every other dimension. I don't think it's for everybody, but I love that neck.
But, the guitar doesn't sound as good on single note work as my other guitars (I have a Lil 59 HB in the neck position). It is possible, but I have no evidence one way or another, that the slender neck doesn't have enough mass for a more powerful single note sound. In contrast I think the Yamaha often sounds better on chords. Less low-mid energy, or something.
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Longer scale length has further spaced out overtones. As a result, at least to my ear, there is more high end information, and more separation of voices.
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I have a hard time taking the producer of the video very seriously. Everything he does seems designed to be click bait and, just my opinion, it's all intended to build up the value of his YouTube channel than it is to inform. It always feels to me like a good example of video three card monte. Monetizing a YouTube channel is a real challenge and he does seem to be doing a good job of that.
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 03-23-2022 at 08:21 AM.
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I can't speak to whether he's doing this in good faith, but agree that this is a poor experiment. It has some of the appearance of rigor, but with no measurement of the outputs, no controls, no double-blinding, there's no actual rigor, and just the same-old subjective judgment on phone speakers. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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That's very interesting. The bit about Gibsons not actually being 24.75" (since 1954, some are 24 5/8" and some are 24 9/16") sent me down quite a rabbit hole of reading and measuring. It turns out my "Gibson scale" D'Angelico (Korean) is a true 24.75" ,and my nominally 624mm (24.57") Seventy-seven is actually true Gibson scale as measured (within the limits of my tape measure's and eyeball's precision). Probably doesn't make any noticeable difference.in sound or feel, but it does kind of rearrange my brain a bit. Originally Posted by marcwhy
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Of course it's easy to find holes in any youtube experiment. But let's not forget that most people's convictions about the tonal effects of various construction parameters are based on far less methodical observations than those carried out by some youtubers.
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I recently picked up a inexpensive travel size electric with a 19 inch scale for car practicing. Normally on a electric I run 10s but of course those worked and sounded like rubber bands. I went up to 12s to get enough tension to stay at standard pitch and the tone and intonation are now great. Scale length sound on a extreme isn't really a factor but tension and diameter is. Another thing I noticed was that pickup placement seemed to work best with the pickup placed about the same distance from the bridge as a full size guitar rather than scaling down in proportion to the scale length. I noticed the same thing on my mandocaster over the years.
Didn't watch the video yet so can't comment there.
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Interesting vid about the influence of the scale length on the tone. However, to me it seems not to be the greatest influence on getting the desired tone. Guitar model. strings, pickup, pick. settings of guitar and amp have IMHO a way greater influence on the tone than scale length. Scale length is above all a matter of personal taste/preferance. Having a smaller body and/or smaller hands/arms tends to be happier with the 24.75 scale than the 25.5 scale and vica versa. But, the vid clearly shows there IS an influence of the scale length on the tone. Would have appreciated some conclusions at the end.
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My brain has been rearranged so many times I'm lucky I can locate anything at all up there. Believe me, it's a mess! Originally Posted by John A.
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I do believe that scale length and intonation are related. I had an Ibanez AF-207 (actually, I owned two as the first one I bought had serious fret wear and I replaced it with one that was hardly played). This guitar was a 7 string archtop with a 24.7 scale. The Lowest string intonated fine as a B string, but as a Low A, it did not intonate properly (I could get close to OK intonation with a heavy string, but the balance with the other strings was far from perfect). I think the guitar was not a good seller for Ibanez with this flaw. The Low B is fine for rockers, but they want a solid body. Jazzers want an archtop, but they want a low A and also need proper intonation. I had a couple of Novax guitars with the fanned frets and a different scale length for each string (I had a 7 string and an 8 string). Intonation was perfect on those guitars, but I never adjusted to the fan frets in the lowest 5 fret area. Eventually, I went back to only playing 6 string guitars (that is plenty of strings to wrap my head around!)
As far as tone goes, I do think a longer scale length will be brighter (look at 25.25 Gypsy guitars for proof of that) and will also have more tension and require bigger stretches. At this point, almost all of my public performances are done on my 24.75 scale guitars. I like the dark tone and my fingers like the comfort. At home my vintage D'Angelicos get the playtime and all of them are 24.75 scale. But if you like the longer spacing, the more "detailed" tone and the higher tension, 25.5 will be a better choice.
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I find the 25" scale of my '86 PRS CU24 a comfortable middle ground twixt my Gibsons and Fenders, and experience little if any discomfort switching amongst them. As to tone, it has been rightly noted that the longer scale will have a richer harmonic content (everything else being equal). Single-coil pickups enhance that effect. Ultimately I think where and how you set the string in motion has an at least equally important influence.
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Interesting. Are these all solid-body guitars you're talking about? Originally Posted by Bluedawg
I love playing my long-scale Selmer-style guitar, which is almost 26.4, and I've wondered how that would work on a fully acoustic archtop.
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