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I've related elsewhere how I'm experimenting with Pyramid's Black Tape Nylon strings for acoustic playing and how I love the sound (and feel).
These are thin-core round-wound strings that have an outer winding with a nylon tape, making them sound as close to a nylon string as you can get. I had Pyramid make me a couple of sets that use 80/20 brass inner winding instead of the pure nickel used in the production version. These are a bit more lively for acoustic playing, while retaining most of the warmth.
They also appear really to be designed for electric guitars with more set-up gimmicks than acoustic guitars tend to have. From the D down they quickly go from barely usable intonation to downright unusable (the 52-gauge low E is more like a low G; it actually buzzed on the saddle on my flattop). The A string is about 20ct sharp at the 12th fret with a standard compensated saddle; even the B (2nd fret) is audibly sharp. Somehow I managed to slant my archtop saddle so I can find a "temperament" allowing my to play sufficiently well in tune in drop-D with a Plectrum AC112 6th string.
Galli and LaBella both also make similar tape-wound strings (LaBella even 2 kinds). If think I've seen mention for all of them that they go sharp easily if you fret too hard (or your action is a little high). The Pyramids do this too, but you can learn to avoid this.
How are the LaBella and/or Galli tape-wounds regarding compensation?
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04-14-2022 07:41 AM
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I experimented with tapes on my 7 string. Liked them, but they are much less tension compared to the same gauge steel string. You need to go up a gauge or two. I’m not 100% sold yet, so I don’t want to file the nut slots larger, only to have to make a new nut for my present gauge strings. Maybe on a rainy day, I’ll make a nut exclusively for the larger tapes and swap it back if I decide I don’t like them.
Edit: Intonation was fine with the tapes of the same gauge. I just need a little more tension.Last edited by Zigracer; 04-14-2022 at 11:29 AM.
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Tapewounds like these put less tension between tail and tuner, so relief will be reduced compared to traditional flats like Chromes. It may well take a truss rod adjustment (looser, for more relief) and maybe a slight bridge height increase to set it up well. I suspect that raising the nut slots (cutting a new nut or shimming the old) would aggravate intonation problems on most guitars because these are much softer strings that go sharp with any more finger pressure than is needed to fret the note cleanly. Taller frets increase the likelihood that a higher nut is needed, but they also aggravate intonation problems close to the nut with excess finger pressure.
TIs are a bit less stiff and tense than Chromes, so the change to tapewounds from TIs of equivalent gauge will not be as dramatic on most guitars. This is probably true for most round core strings compared to hex core. But finger pressure will still require more delicacy and consistency for decent intonation. And the taller the frets are, the worse this problem will be.
I suspect that tapewound strings on an archtop are like gut strings on a tennis racket. They both let highly skilled and disciplined pros get more from them than they could get from plain old strings. But they magnify minor user errors and are harder for those of us with less than excellent technique to control well.
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Which brand?
Originally Posted by Zigracer
I have the 12-52 set from Pyramid. They do make a heavier set, but my fear was that this would be too heavy while still showing the same intonation issue. Increasing the tension/gauge of an unwound G probably doesn't fix any intonation problems you get on a guitar that's compensated for wound G strings, or does it?
My assumption is that the nylon/metal ratio increases string gauge in the current design; the G intonations perfectly AFAICT but the additional thickness is much less apparent (at the headers) on this string than on the lower ones. I'm certain that this is what explains the increasing need for more compensation in the lower strings.
Curiously, it's the G which reminded me most of a plain nylon string when I heard it in a test recording. In short, some more experimentation would be required to determine how thin the tape can be to be durable, have an audible effect on sound but not on intonation.
Thanks for the compliment, I guess! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I'm neither a pro nor exactly highly skilled, but I think I do indeed get things out of these strings than with my usual Plectrums. Part of that is because of the playing comfort (I fingerpick, without using nails).
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I just received the LaBella black nylon 12 set to try on my Sadowsky. I am a die-hard roundwound guy, so we’ll see.
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I think scale length and fret spacing are independent of string gauge within the usual range. Heavier strings tend toward better intonation at the same pitch. That’s why we use 76s to 80s for a 7th string on a standard scale guitar. The linguini that comes on most pointy 7s made for metal is horribly out of tune for jazz and commercial music for most players, even with 27”+ scale length. Originally Posted by RJVB
Increasing the tension/gauge of an unwound G probably doesn't fix any intonation problems you get on a guitar that's compensated for wound G strings, or does it?
Thanks for the compliment, I guess! I'm neither a pro nor exactly highly skilled, but I think I do indeed get things out of these strings than with my usual Plectrums. Part of that is because of the playing comfort (I fingerpick, without using nails).
If you’re getting fine tone and intonation from your tapewounds without buzzing, you’re doing something very well! I’ve heard nothing but complaints from most who tried them. I’ve never given them a go myself, but curiosity is gnawing at me really hard!
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I suppose so, but compensation is also dependent on the string. Yes, maybe a heavier gauge would intonate better but it will depend on how they reach that gauge. For instance, if they increase the thickness of the nylon layer more than the thickness of the metal core. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I liked the tone they give from the onset, before I adapted to their quirks, you don't need particular technique to get an idea of their potential (whatever that may be for you)If you’re getting fine tone and intonation from your tapewounds without buzzing, you’re doing something very well!
The quirks mean compromises need to be made. As stated above, I managed to find a usable position for the bridge but still can't simply tune open strings (or I'd need to use a tuner that shows me the error in cents). Tuning to the important notes (lower 5 frets) of the key I'm playing is a workable and easy alternative though that keeps the errors within +- 5ct. The A and D do buzz easily, maybe that could be improved by increasing the relief a little, but it is in fact rarely an issue with fingerpicking (I can't arpeggiate certain chords with the thumb but I have other fingers to help me with that )
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Been using the Labella tapes white and Black on my Sadowsky JH for some time now and will stay with it.
Feel and sound great.
(Also PM2 and all others)
Be sure to leave about an inch or inch and a half on top or they will unwind.
Otherwise Labella black tapes 12-56. Is phenom!
Expensive but they will last quite a long time.
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Keep us informed? Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Also, do these also have a short length of exposed metal at the end (headers)? The Pyramids do, which clearly shows the double-wound design. LaBella's description of the strings suggest that they only have a nylon winding over a steel (hex) core, which seems a bit unlikely if you think of why we use wound strings...
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I've tried few times Galli strings, because it seems to be the only brand (as far I know) that has nylon tapered plain strings too.
Having nylon across all 6 strings make it sound very balanced, avoiding the terrible tone gap between wound and unwound string.
The basic problem is the gauge: they are extremely big, with a very low tension.
I can't imagine how somebody who would like to try them would reshape his guitar's nut just to accomodate a 067 string, which has barely a tension of a nickel/bronze wound 0.42.
I've talked about this with Tommaso Galli on several occasions, and he told me that it will be possible to address this problem... but it seems it's just MY problem
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That would be my problem too, but they are just too expensive. I wouldn't mind too much having a dedicated nut (and saddle, if necessary) for such "cables" if the sound were exceptional. Usually a well-cut nut will stay in place perfectly fine because of string tension (the bridge does too, after all, even if we really dig in).
How long do/did the wound trebles last for you? Thomastik make nylon tape-wound trebles for classical guitar (over a multi-strand steel rope core!) and I was surprised to see those didn't show significant wear after the few weeks I tried them.
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PS: my usual online string vendor was interested in adding tape-wounds (more) suitable for acoustic playing to his catalog, and told me he'd check with the string manufacturer they apparently work with. I haven't yet heard back about that, sadly.
I think it's safe to say that such strings would be suitable for electric playing too, so it shouldn't hurt if I could tell him how much (as opposed to how little
) interest there is for more choice of this kind of string.
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Being nylon flatwound, they are usually long lasting.
The only set I kept for quite a long time was on my jazzmaster. I think two or three months?
I really would like a set with smaller diameter and better string tension on bass. Maybe with a string for 7 strings guitar.
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More tension esp. at a smaller diameter will mean a (much) thinner nylon winding; the question is if you'll like the sound as much.
But with Galli being in Italy maybe they can strike a deal with Aquila to make Rubino tape for them, or similarly treated nylon tape. That would mean a denser, heavier tape so you could make the metal core a bit thinner and the tape-winding a bit thicker and arrive at the same unit weight.
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The last time I tried the LaBella tapes, almost 10 years ago, they were wire wound underneath the nylon tape. Winding nylon over a solid core alone just wouldn't work well.
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Well, maybe one day I'll ask Tommaso Galli again.
In the meantime I'm really happy with a custom set of Dogal bronze flatwound.
They last forever, no noise, and I really like the tone.
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No, I don't think the winding would change much (unless you load the nylon with heavy metal, but then it may start to get too many effects) Originally Posted by sgosnell
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One of my guitars came strung with LaBella black tapewounds (12-56). They have much lower tension than other strings of the same gauge (way slacker feeling than than TI flats or Chromes). They felt really strange to me. I gave up on after maybe a day before switching to Chromes. From what I gather, people either love them or find them unusable.
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One of my guitars came strung with LaBella black tapewounds (12-56). They have much lower tension than other strings of the same gauge (way slacker feeling than than TI flats or Chromes). They felt really strange to me. I gave up on after maybe a day before ditching them for Chromes. From what I gather, people either love them or find them unusable with pretty much no in between.
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I'll ask this only once
, do you know how they compare to the Pyramid tape-wounds, tension-wise?
The low E aside, the 12-52 Pyramids don't feel or behave like rubber bands at all to me.
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Sorry, I've never tried the pyramids and have no idea how they compare to anything else. Originally Posted by RJVB
I'll ask this only once, do you know how they compare to the Pyramid tape-wounds, tension-wise?
The low E aside, the 12-52 Pyramids don't feel or behave like rubber bands at all to me.
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For what it's worth, these are the tensions of the production Pyramid Black Tape Nylons (nickel inner winding):
The brass version has a little less tension (but I haven't noticed they intonate or buzz worse). Originally Posted by Pyramid
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