Body width vs. body depth vs. neck scale... What difference do they make?

[Steve Z]

In my search for an archtop, I have come across three different Campellone guitars that all have different specs. This lead me to wonder,

• "What does each difference do to the sound of the guitar?"
• "Are the differences really noticable when not compared side by side?"
• ...etc.

I thought comparing these three Campellone guitars might lead to a fun discussion on how specs affect tone, playability, etc. The same discussion could also relate to comparing other archtops as well.

Below guitars... pics because, well... everyone loves pictures
16" body -- 3" depth -- 24.6" scale -- 1 11/16" nut
17" body -- 2.25" depth -- 25" scale -- 1 3/4" nut
17" body -- 3" depth -- 25.5" scale -- 1 11/16" nut (actually scale not know, but for sake of discussion let's assume 25.5")


16" body -- 3" depth -- 24.6" scale -- 1 11/16" nut



17" body -- 2.25" depth -- 25" scale -- 1 3/4" nut
Campellone Standard $4,500


17" body -- 3" depth -- 25.5" scale -- 1 11/16" nut (actually scale not know, but for sake of discussion let's assume 25.5")
Campellone Deluxe 2007 Archtop Electric Jazz Guitar | Reverb

[Gilpy]

Everybody knows that the bigger and deeper the body, the bigger the sound. But that is not true.

I have owned many hand-carved archtops in all sizes and depths from well respected makers, including all three sizes you reference. (Including one of the guitars pictured). Sound does not always correlate with size.
Other factors are equally important, so you just have to look at guitars as individuals.

[sgosnell]

As a broad generality, as size and depth increase, so does bass response. But while it ain't necessarily so, as Gershwin wrote, it's somewhat more likely. This is assuming everything else is the same, which is seldom the case. Bracing, the woods used, top thickness, all sorts of things can influence the sound.

[Hammertone]

As a broad generality, it's somewhat more likely that:
-the 17"/3"/25.5" Campellone will have a bigger, fatter sound than the 16"/3"/24.6" Campellone;
-the 17"/3"/25.5" Campellone will have a fatter sound than the 17"/2.25"/25" Campellone.

[Jabberwocky]

My preference: 25" scale length; 2.75" to 3" rim depth; 16" lower bout; 1.75" nut width. Goldilocks.

24.6" is close enough to 25". 24.6" is the compensated Rule of 18 Les Paul Standard effective scale length. The nominal scale length is 24.75". 1" 11/16th is the standard electric guitar nut width. And blondes have more fun..

[Jabberwocky]

See?

[Jabberwocky]

17" a...behind is a real handful. 16" is much more manageable.

[Cunamara]

1206382[/URL]]Everybody knows that the bigger and deeper the body, the bigger the sound. But that is not true.

I have owned many hand-carved archtops in all sizes and depths from well respected makers, including all three sizes you reference. (Including one of the guitars pictured). Sound does not always correlate with size.
Other factors are equally important, so you just have to look at guitars as individuals.

Yep. Flattops, too- the biggest sounding flattop I have ever played was a Martin OM David Bromberg signature model. Way bigger than any dreadnought I've ever played. Every guitar is an individual, although there are trends which become rules of thumbs which become expert declarations on the interwebs by folks like me...

[Hammertone]

Yep. Flattops, too- the biggest sounding flattop I have ever played was a Martin OM David Bromberg signature model. Way bigger than any dreadnought I've ever played. Every guitar is an individual, although there are trends which become rules of thumbs which become expert declarations on the interwebs by folks like me...

Martin introduced the M-38 in 1977 and the M-36 in 1978, years after Marc Silber and Matt Umanov started converting crappy old Martin F-7 and F-9 16" archtops into flattop guitars at Bromberg's request. These were 14th-fret OOOO-sized guitars, and this size has a larger interior air volume (and a more balanced sound) than the 14th-fret Martin dreadnought size. Martin subsequently introduced the J-series guitars, which are simply M-series guitars with deeper rims. All of these can be very loud guitars.

[bluejaybill]

While individual guitars vary, the scale length can affect the tone is measurable ways. I recently read an article comparing the three scale lengths and the overtone series on each is different, with 25.5 having the most "pleasing", for want of a better word, overtones, both in terms of quantity and the quality of which ones are emphasized. 24.75 has the fewest overtones and different ones emphasized. The 25 inch scale was not studied quite as much but had still different overtones prominent, some of which were not the usual suspects.

I wish I'd bookmarked the paper, it was pretty technical, and you had to know your overtone series to understand it, but the point is that they were different and it's a good thing to know going in. Probably of more importance is which is the most comfortable to you; a longer scale is of no use if you play worse on it! That's why I went for 25" scale on my Campellone, I was having trouble reaching certain chords on the 25.5 scale.

Body width again is subjective, but all things being equal, which they rarely are, bigger is fuller sounding. The reason they are not equal is that usually a 25.5" scale is on a bigger guitar (L5, S400, D28), and shorter tend to be on smaller guitars that are often laminate, solid or semi-hollows (ES175, ES335, LP, smaller Martins, etc).

You might want to reach out to Mark Campellone and ask him that question, tell him that you are looking at a few of his guitars and see what he says. IIRC I don't think he thought there was that big of a difference between 25 and 25.5, and that it was worth it to go for the full depth, unless that would be uncomfortable. But see what he has to say about it.

[Nick71]

First of all Campellone guitars are the best way to go as far as I am concerned, great choice.
As far as size goes knowing your favorite size for comfort & playability is top priority, Ergonomics!
My personal favorite is the first Campellone on your list.
16x3, 24.6, 1&11/16..
Fits like a glove..

[Steve Z]

All great info. Thanks.

Sounds like there are not set "rules" to size vs. tone/sound. A lot of generalities, then it depends on each individual instrument.

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

[Hammertone]

...usually a 25.5" scale is on a bigger guitar (L5, S400, D28), and shorter tend to be on smaller guitars that are often laminate, solid or semi-hollows (ES175, ES335, LP, smaller Martins, etc).

Most of the best, carved, German archtops (built in the 1950s and 1960s) have shorter scale necks on larger bodies (@16 1/2", 17" and 17 1/2" wide). They all use some variation on parallel bracing.

[Spook410]

Hmm.. yes. There are some rules.

- 25.5" scale generates more string tension than a shorter scale

- Inside volume will significantly contribute to the resonant frequency and the attack envelope

[bluejaybill]

First of all Campellone guitars are the best way to go as far as I am concerned, great choice.
As far as size goes knowing your favorite size for comfort & playability is top priority, Ergonomics!
My personal favorite is the first Campellone on your list.
16x3, 24.6, 1&11/16..
Fits like a glove..

Basically a 175 size. I would not expect it to have quite the acoustic tone of the bigger guitars, but it will still sound mighty fine!

[bluejaybill]

Most of the best, carved, German archtops (built in the 1950s and 1960s) have shorter scale necks on larger bodies (@16 1/2", 17" and 17 1/2" wide). They all use some variation on parallel bracing.

And I believe some D'Angellicos as well?

But of course my point was that it is hard to fine an apples to apples comparison of these dimensions in the normal run of things, and almost never in the same place at the same time!

So you almost have to go by the individual guitar.

But I do think it helps to know what neck and body dimensions you are most comfortable with.