Anyone have experience with the Gibson Citation and the Le Grand or Johnny Smith?

[Bluedawg]

I ordered my Le Grand back in '93, just after they were introduced .... which was shortly after Johnny Smith dropped Gibson and signed with Heritage

Picked up that Le Grand in February of '94 and still have it. It's been a great guitar both as an acoustic and an electric.


I 've been wondering if a Citation would be a nice addition to my little collection.


Has anyone been able to play both guitars?

I'm guessing they are both takes on the classic Johnny Smith design with similar sound flavors.

Did you find the Citation to be a Le Grand/Johnny Smith with extra bling or did they actually manage to make the Citations something a little different? Maybe even better?

Thanks

[deacon Mark]

I have a Legrand from 2003, and I have a Johnny Smith Heritage from 2002. My good friend down the street has a Citation from I believe around 2000. We have had them all in the same room and gone over the whole spectrum. We did an informal shoot out with the guitars we had and it did include many other guitars. If you are interested in that I will report that too but right to the question.

Personally the 3 guitars all sound great. Which one is better really is just not something I can say with any absolute confidence. Of the 3 none of them stands out as sounding particularly better than another one. Clearly the Citation beautiful but frankly my Legrand looks and plays as good. I have no real preference over which one is better. The market says a Citation is worth more but as a player my eyes and ears say, it depends on the guitar.

Now truthfully I might have to say the Heritage Johnny Smith also is equal to either of these guitars. It does however sound a bit different as it is made different in the carve and how the neck is attached with the fingerboard to the upper register of the body ( full contact ). The HJS has much more defined and clear highs. It does not have quite the mellow low end that the Citation or Legrand has. The HJS is a bit louder in terms of pure output and volume. I have owned 2 previous GIbson Johnny Smith's that were good guitars but not as good as these in any respects.


Any of these guitars made during the good QC years will be great and to me none of them stand out above the other. If you find of the three and like the sound, buy it.
Now the big question if there is something better in the mix that does not include one of the 3 guitars I just mentioned. The answer is a resounding yes. Remember I told my friend down the street has nice guitars to compare I have others that we compared on that day too. If you want a short rundown, I would be glad to tell you but be very careful you may not like the answer, and it will surprise you. It did for me at least in one particular guitar and it was obvious.

[Bluedawg]

Thanks, Deacon Mark

I would love to hear about your shootout ...

And I would love to hear what surprised you ...

Great guitars aren't always the expensive one

[floatingpickup]

Thanks, Deacon Mark

I would love to hear about your shootout ...

And I would love to hear what surprised you ...

Great guitars aren't always the expensive one

I would like to hear about the shootout as well. Mark dropped a couple of clues about the winner in the above post.
Keith

[jads57]

There is a Citation for sale currently at Lavonne Music in Savage, Minnesota at the moment. They also had a lovely Le Grand as well that sold.
I actually preferred the Le Grand from a sound and playing perspective. But the Citation is incredibly beautiful!

[Danny W.]

I've had lots of time playing both models, but it's been a few years since I had any of them. While I thought they were excellent they're not the same and I wouldn't make a blanket statement about which another player would prefer. I never gigged with my Citations but I did with my LeGrands a few times. The lack of a giant volute swings my playability vote to the LeGrand, while the double-bound volute/headstock adds a visual intrigue to the Citation that few other guitars have. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Edit: Of that photo I still have only the little one in the front.

Danny W.

[Bluedawg]

There is a Citation for sale currently at Lavonne Music in Savage, Minnesota at the moment. They also had a lovely Le Grand as well that sold.
I actually preferred the Le Grand from a sound and playing perspective. But the Citation is incredibly beautiful!

Thanks

That one at Lavonne is a beauty.

[Jabberwocky]

[Marty Grass]

I've had lots of time playing both models, but it's been a few years since I had any of them. While I thought they were excellent they're not the same and I wouldn't make a blanket statement about which another player would prefer. I never gigged with my Citations but I did with my LeGrands a few times. The lack of a giant volute swings my playability vote to the LeGrand, while the double-bound volute/headstock adds a visual intrigue to the Citation that few other guitars have. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Edit: Of that photo I still have only the little one in the front.

Danny W.

The Kalamazoo Award wins based on its looks and name. Case closed!

[AKA]

Heads-up. I will be posting my Legrand for sale in the next few days.

AKA

[deacon Mark]

Ok to continue with the shoot I mention of my good friend Jim down the street. I mentioned he had bought the Citation and brought it over seems like it was about 8 months ago. We did compare the Legrand right up side by side. However Jim like me has other guitars. In fact he has 2 Bill Hollenbeck's and 17 inch and 18 inch. He also has a 17 inch Barker. These guitars are all from the 1990's the Barker late 80's. I have 1 18 inch Hollenbeck and 2 Barker's they are 17 inch. We spend at least 3-4 hours doing this.

Finally, and this is more of the real comparison. I have 2003 Gibson L5c that at one time belong to Danny W. It is a Custom Shop guitar made acoustic and specifically to function as an acoustic L5. It does however have a floating BJB pickup. I can tell you now of the Legrand, Citation and my own Heritage Johnny Smith, I personally like the sound of the L5c the best. It has the fullest sound from the whole spectrum. It has more power than the Citation and the Legrand even the Heritage JS. It also possesses at wonderful response in the highs but still retains a big bass presence.

The surprise which really to some extent is not a surprise I actually like the L5c over the Citation and Legrand, at least purely on an acoustic level of sound and playing. Now granted the differences are not huge and any of them fine guitars, I give the nod to the "plain old L5c." It has block inlays and not the more flash and bling of a Legrand or Citation for sure. However, in all respects I like the guitar just as well without the bling factor. So the surprise is that one should ever underestimate a Gibson L5. It seems to just meet the needs and be an overall winner. Not too big like a Super 400, not too small like a 16 inch.

Now just to go further although now we are talking non-Gibson's guitars. All of the Gibson in total and the one Heritage JS, are not the acoustic marvels of the Hollenbeck's or the Barkers. Does that make the better or not? I don't know but my 18 inch Hollenbeck clearly would smoke any of those guitars for pure output of sound and clarity. Now that said frankly, I enjoy playing any of the Gibson's just as well. Equally they inspire me to play so what does that mean? Well, I am just a goofy so don't put too much in that.

Finally in the shootout I bring out the 49 D'angelico New Y. Granted it is an 18 inch guitar so direct comparison to Legrands and Citations have to account for this. It is at times hard to get past certain names on the headstock so what we see, can cloud what we hear. The D'a wins in all respects except one, just that the neck is a bit narrower and not quite as nice as the Legrand or Citation. But after 3 minutes of playing it the hand does not know or care. The pulse and throb in the middle of the D'a neck, simply has no challengers..........none it wins.

[Hammertone]

I have found the differences in size (body length and depth) between the L-5C and the GJS/LeGrand/Citation/HJS to be noticeable when they are in hand. Given the other differences in construction, it doesn't surprise me that, in general, the cross-braced or parallel-braced L-5C would have a bit "more" in terms of acoustic sound.

[helios]

In the past, I've dismissed floaters (unfairly, I might add) as being too bright & boomy, but this gentleman on his JS gets fantastic tone IMHO:

[Bluedawg]

I've found my Le Grand to be quite bright compared to my L5 CES in the past, but recently I bought an amp stand for playing in our living room.

Listening to my amps on the stand, with the speaker directly facing my ears, gives even my Le Grand a nice mellow tone with plenty of bottom end.

In the past I was always frustrated with how my Heritage Sweet 16 and its floater pickup sounded so bright at home, but could be quite mellow on a gig with a band and a room full of people.

Putting the amp on a stand lets me here the tones I was hearing in a larger room with people in it.

[floatingpickup]

The original single pickup Gibson Johnny Smith model was fitted with only a volume control and no tone control. Today, many archtops that have floating pickups continue to be built this way. In my mind, this makes a guitar sound overly bright. I know the idea is to control the tone with the amplifier, but I still find it difficult to get the sound I want that way. I have always requested the addition of a tone control on this style of guitar when ordering a new instrument. I do have a couple of vintage instruments with Johnny Smith pickups that don’t have tone controls, but that is only because I don’t want to mess with the originality of them (and I don’t gig with those ones anyway). A new archtop, such as a Campellone, fitted with a floating pickup and volume and tone controls will definitely produce a beautiful warm tone.
Keith

[mrwoland]

I had a LeGrand many years ago.
Great and beautiful guitar indeed, but it's acoustic sound was not really what I was looking for, so I sold it.
Here's an old recording of my LeGrand.
The sound is a mix of the acoustic and the pickup.
Tuning is CGDAEG

[jads57]

This is like comparing Sophia Loren, Virna Lisa, Claudia Cardinale, Brigid Bardot, Anne Margaret,etc… in their prime, Lol! I don’t think you lose no matter what!

[Marty Grass]

The original single pickup Gibson Johnny Smith model was fitted with only a volume control and no tone control. Today, many archtops that have floating pickups continue to be built this way. In my mind, this makes a guitar sound overly bright. I know the idea is to control the tone with the amplifier, but I still find it difficult to get the sound I want that way. I have always requested the addition of a tone control on this style of guitar when ordering a new instrument. I do have a couple of vintage instruments with Johnny Smith pickups that don’t have tone controls, but that is only because I don’t want to mess with the originality of them (and I don’t gig with those ones anyway). A new archtop, such as a Campellone, fitted with a floating pickup and volume and tone controls will definitely produce a beautiful warm tone.
Keith

Not hard to add a tone pot!

[Bluedawg]

This is like comparing Sophia Loren, Virna Lisa, Claudia Cardinale, Brigid Bardot, Anne Margaret,etc… in their prime, Lol! I don’t think you lose no matter what!

Fortunately, guitars don't hire lawyers, throw things, or know how to use firearms when you spend too much time with another guitar.

[wintermoon]

Virna Lisi, yikes
Remember this one?

[Bluedawg]

Virna Lisi, yikes
Remember this one?

LOL

A great movie ... apparently her acting talents were as good as or better then her looks

But when she was younger, the movie industry wasn't noticing her acting abilities.

[floatingpickup]

Not hard to add a tone pot!

I agree - I have done it a number of times. If I planned on using a guitar regularly on gigs, I would definitely add a tone pot.
Keith

[bluejaybill]

In the past, I've dismissed floaters (unfairly, I might add) as being too bright & boomy, but this gentleman on his JS gets fantastic tone IMHO:

Very nice sound and playing. It has that "snap" when he digs in that I associate with a good floating pickup guitar, almost like an acoustic guitar response. But still plenty fat and warm.

It looks like he has a mike in front of him, I wonder if they mixed in some acoustic tone?

[Marty Grass]

Very nice sound and playing. It has that "snap" when he digs in that I associate with a good floating pickup guitar, almost like an acoustic guitar response. But still plenty fat and warm.

It looks like he has a mike in front of him, I wonder if they mixed in some acoustic tone?

Some of the snap sounds like it's because the action is low. The string is slapping the fret above the note. There's an immediate rapid volume decay then a slower decay follows.

You can hear this on some of the higher notes here also.

Here also but less so.

This snap seems more prominent with pick use, with more forceful notes, in the unwound strings, and higher up the neck (in the trough of the neck relief).

I don't see the association with a floater though unless there is a different snap we are talking about.

Here is a Howard Roberts album. He plays with a pick, uses heavy strings, and has very little string slap, if any. He has a floating pickup.

[vinnyv1k]

Heads-up. I will be posting my Legrand for sale in the next few days.

AKA

hmm - I live in Northern Ca. too.