Gibson ES-175 Newbie

[Partagas2b]

Hello everyone,

I've always dreamed have a ES175. In 3 years, I saved a lot of money to buy a good one. I have 5000 euros to spend to get a good instrument. The problem is I m a little lost. The one and only ES175 I have tried was a Norlin era which was modified and sound pretty bad. I don't know what I can expect with that amount of money and which period to spot. Also, there is no many ES175 in my city or around it.. so I have to take it on the internet. What advice can you give to me ?

Thanks for reading me.

[j4zz]

Not to try to talk you out of it, but if you didn't like the only one you have ever tried, how do you know want an ES175 ?

I agree they look nice (I have a copy not a real one).

[Partagas2b]

I freakin love the sound of it. The one i’ve played was lent to me for 2 days. The guitar was very heavy and was weird modified.

[JohanAbrandt]

I would not buy anything for 5k euro without warranty unseen on internet

Unless possibly if the seller/merchant was recommended by trusted parties, i.e had a reputation to protect.

fwiw

[Partagas2b]

Thanks for your answer.

[dconeill]

As a start, find and read Adrian Ingram's book "The Gibson ES-175 - Its History and Players". It's out of print and hard to find - maybe you could get it on interlibrary loan, if your local libraries offer that.

You suggest you're willing to spend quite a lot of money on a guitar that you're not very familiar with, by experience. To my mind, your purchasing interest is premature, but that's your look-out. If you can pay the rent and your children aren't going hungry, then how you spend your money is up to you.

But be aware that there are a number of alternatives to the ES-175. Among things to look for are a mahogany neck, rosewood fingerboard, 24.75" scale length, and plywood ("laminate") construction, and perhaps the neck pickup polepieces being about where the 24th fret would be, though none of these are a guarantee of a particular sound. Some that are worth looking at include the Ibanez PM-200, modeled after a single pickup 175; the Comins GCS-16-1 and GCS-16-2; some Seventy-Seven brand guitars; Heritage H-175s; some Archtop Tribute and other models offered by Walkin in Japan; and, of course Sadowsky, particularly his Jim Hall model. There are others, like Godin, Eastman, and Peerless. All of these can be hard to find, unfortunately. I don't know much about availability in Europe or what other brands might be available there.

But for all that, you can get a very similar sound out of a Telecaster, especially with a neck humbucker. Compare, in particular, the sounds Jim Hall (ES175) and Ed Bickert (Tele, maybe with neck humbucker, maybe not) get on their recordings with Paul Desmond.

Don't fall in love with the appearance of a guitar. Fall in love with it as it sounds when **you** play it.

[Tal_175]

Don't listen to the posts so far, that's not how guitars work. You won't really know whether you like a guitar or not until you own it for at least 6 months. Yes, it's easy to form opinions about guitars after playing them for an hour in a store, but that not a reliable way of choosing a guitar unfortunately. Guitars can be set up in a variety of ways, played through different amps, in different rooms etc. Also you hear them differently on different days and you subtly change how you play them over time. It takes time to really get to know an instrument.

It's a lifetime of fun to explore instruments, moreover one's tastes, expectations and sensitives change over time. If you've always wanted to have an ES 175, you'll buy one inevitably and find out for yourself what you like about them and what you don't. Either way you'll learn something about your relationship with guitars.

The price doesn't matter as long as you're not paying over the market price. You'll sell it for more later on if you don't like it. Think of it as a free rental

[tomassplatch]

Hello, I recently bought a 2012 Gibson online, without seeing it, for 2500€ in France. You can hear the sound and get some more info in this thread :

Blind Test - Ibanez 2355 M (1977) vs GIbson ES-175 (2012) sound comparison

I don't know if it is a good specimen, or a dud, because I never had an opportunity to compare it to other ES 175 (I recently tried a Norlin era 1980 ES 175 Natural, but it was in a shop in Brussels, a different amp etc., so not a fair comparison). But I like playing mine and it has always been a dream for me to have en ES 175, I love the feel of the guitar and there are no big QA issues.

I had a copy before and tried several other hollowbodies in my search for the sound (Ibanez 2355, a japaneese Greco copy, Eastman 371, Eastman T 49D, Ibanez AF 125, Ibanez PM 20). I must say that I was a little disappointed with them, although they were fine guitars, I was looking for the sound I had in my ear from listening to Gibson recordings, and you can only get the Gibson sound with a Gibson. So if you like the sound of a Gibson ES 175, I would rather recommend buying the "real thing", and not other models from other companies. At least that is what I learned from my experience.

As for what you can get for 5000€, it is difficult with the climbing prices to get a vintage model for this price. I took a risk and bought one blind, because it was a good opportunity and I think that I could sell it for at least the same price if I didn't like it...

[citizenk74]

Hello everyone,

I've always dreamed have a ES175. In 3 years, I saved a lot of money to buy a good one. I have 5000 euros to spend to get a good instrument. The problem is I m a little lost. The one and only ES175 I have tried was a Norlin era which was modified and sound pretty bad. I don't know what I can expect with that amount of money and which period to spot. Also, there is no many ES175 in my city or around it.. so I have to take it on the internet. What advice can you give to me ?

Thanks for reading me.

Love your user name (I am a Partagas Black guy, myself, though the classic blend remains a favorite). A good ES-175 is a wonderful thing, and in my opinion well worth the wait and work in finding the right one for you. Mine is a 2004 50th Anniversary model with Classic '57 pickups, and I could not be happier. Good luck in your quest!

[Stringswinger]

Get a 175. There is nothing like the real thing.

[JohanAbrandt]

Don't listen to the posts so far, that's not how guitars work. You won't really know whether you like a guitar or not until you own it for at least 6 months.:

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about this law of nature

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Don't fall in love with the appearance of a guitar. Fall in love with it as it sounds when **you** play it.

That’s certainly great advice. But to be honest, the look of a guitar can be a very powerful attraction. My first good guitar was a used ‘59 ES345 that my dealer found for me and sold to me at a very low price to encourage me. I’d been gigging with my LG-1 with a DeArmond sound hole pickup and little Kay amp. It was 1960, I’d just started high school), and we started to get bigger gigs than the little local parties & dances that began my career. And that 345 was a great guitar, but it just didn’t look like a “real jazz guitar” to me.

It sounded fine. But it wasn’t the full, meaty thunker I wanted, even though it was a much better guitar for the varied styles I had to play - my little band did pop, rock, show tunes etc pretty well for young teenagers, but I was far from a passable jazzer and we had no jazz gigs for at least another 2 years.

But I was already hooked on the way a 175 looked in the artists’ pics in the Gibson catalog, as well as how it sounded on my records by Herb Ellis etc. And the first time I saw the cover of The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery, I knew I absolutely had to have one. My dealer found me a used DN the next year, and I loved it as soon as I saw it.

And even today, I see a lot of guitars that just turn me off with their looks. OTOH, every once in a while, one jumps out at me and I just want it, even without knowing how it sounds, feels, or plays. That Foster 7 on the Sale forum now is one of them, and I can’t even tell you why. So I understand how looks can drive a buy. Fortunately, I’m now old and experienced enough to resist both buying on looks and image alone and paying more than market value.

So I’d say buy it if you love it, but only if you can return it and are willing to put out the effort and possible expense of doing so just because you don’t like playing it as much as you thought you would.

The fate of my beloved 175DN is apocryphal. I sold it to buy a new L-5CN plus Rhythm Chief in 1970, and the one I got had so many problems that the dealer took it back. But I’d sold the 175 to a friend who loved its looks and decided when he saw mine that he wanted to learn to play jazz. He pestered me for a few years to sell it to him - and after I did, he never played it. But he wouldn’t sell it back to me, even for more than he paid me.

[2bornot2bop]

He’s already stated that he likes the sound of a 175. What else is there to say. As Nike says, just do it!

[Filmosound 621]

no no, get a Ibanez, get a Telecaster, get a lawnmover instead.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

He’s already stated that he likes the sound of a 175. What else is there to say. As Nike says, just do it!

But he also said "The one and only ES175 I have tried was a Norlin era which was modified and sound pretty bad." Since we don't know why he didn't like the only 175 he ever played, whatever mods were made may not have been the reason. If it sounded "bad" acoustically, it may well have been a perfectly fine 175 - even my '60 wasn't a wonderful acoustic archtop. And if it simply didn't sound like he's heard on recordings, it could have been anything from strings to setup to pickups to amp to something else. I've heard many recordings of guitars that sounded great, only to discover that in my hands the same model did not sound the way I thought it would.

We've heard from many on this forum who have and love Norlin-made 175s (and other models). I'd be very careful about buying an expensive guitar unseen and unplayed without knowing that I could return it if I didn't like it. Buying from an unknown source far away from you is frought with peril, so you want to minimize the risks of trouble. The more attracted he is to the idea of having a 175, the more risk he'll probably accept to get one he likes. But there are ways to minimize that risk, starting with buying from a reputable person or source and having a guaranteed return privilege with stated terms (e.g. time, costs etc).

[Tal_175]

I'm under the impression that the OP isn't seeking general advice about shopping safely on the internet but he is asking specifically about ES 175's from different era's within his price range. But by all means, yes, it's a good idea to buy from reputable sellers with good return policies when buying anything on the internet.

Broadly speaking, I think there are four main era's of ES 175's:

- Late 50's and 60's. Good examples of these are probably outside of OP's budget. They are generally more resonant and lightly built than the later models. Important thing to watch for in the 60's models is the neck profile and width. In some years they came with narrow and/or skinny neck. 50's models have fat neck.

- Norlin Era. This has already been discussed a bit.

- 80's models with mahogany back and sides. I've never played a mahogany model. People speak highly of them.

- 90's to present. Back to maple back and sides. These have been consistently good quality. They are not as acoustically lively as the first category but many love their electric sound. Gibson also made single pickup Herb Ellis models in this era. They tend to be a bit cheaper.

- Bonus category. During 2010's Gibson made a 59' reissue models with very close to original specs. These are build very similarly to the 50's, 60's models. You can even find single pickup models.

I think it's possible to find guitars from all the era's except for the first era within the OP's price range (including the 59' reissues).

[Gitterbug]

My vote for the -59 VOS reissue. Mine is from 2014 but I believe the 2015 and onwards vintages were even more period perfect on some details. It's a light and alive build, very different from the early 2000s sample I once had.

[Jazz_175]

My vote for the -59 VOS reissue. Mine is from 2014 but I believe the 2015 and onwards vintages were even more period perfect on some details. It's a light and alive build, very different from the early 2000s sample I once had.

As far as I remember they have a wooden bridge. Does it make a real difference with respect to those with metal bridge?

[burchyk]

In my experience ES-175 copies and the originals tend to vary a lot.

I've played a few vintage ones and some modern ones, ended up with a 2010s '59 VOS reissue.

They've all had a different sound character, and also, quite importantly the neck profiles. Some had paper thin necks. Some have the proverbial baseball bats.

Some have P90s, some humbuckers. The pickup of the same model can have different number of windings on them leading to even more tonal variation.

Some are dual (175D) and some are single pickup.

The plywood thickness can be different as the poster above mentioned, 50s-60s and the '59 VOS (reissue) tend to be lighter and livelier. Some people like it, and some don't like the effect it has on the amplified tone.

I think all of the 175s I've tried had some issues. Neck / fretboard rise, fret wear, top, bracing, crooked bridge, crooked pickups, bridge height, weak pickups, bad ground, scratchy pots, cracked rubber grommet, finish, body cracks and dents, binding, traces of Bigsby installs... I would never buy a 175 sight unseen unless I had no choice and there was a good return policy.

Recently the prices went up, whether they will go down or keep raising I can't say... You'd be gambling (resale value) buying right now, unless it is a great deal.

My advice would be to try at least a few of them from different periods. Learn how much each variation, year and condition should cost. Take your time. And good luck!

[burchyk]

As far as I remember they have a wooden bridge. Does it make a real difference with respect to those with metal bridge?

It does for me. The biggest factor would be intonation. There is also a slight tonal difference. I've put a Faber with nylon saddles on mine.

[Gitterbug]

As far as I remember they have a wooden bridge. Does it make a real difference with respect to those with metal bridge?

I haven't had the opportunity to A/B, either with one or two similar guitars. All my favorite archtops have had wooden bridges. Ibanez shipped both styles with their AFJ-105 models. AFAIK, this all-maple build was bright to begin with, and did sound rounder and perhaps less loud with the wooden bridge. That was a long time ago and I stand corrected. The Tal Farlow I acquired last year has a TOM, and the top two strings are zingy. Trying a wooden bridge or at least non-metal saddle pieces on the TOM is on the agenda but not urgent, as I don't think I will ever gig with that 2014 mint beauty.

[j4zz]

When I went to purchase one, I tried a Gibson, Epiphone, Cort and a Washburn. Didn't really want to spend up big on the Gibson, but tried it just in case. In the end I bought the Washburn J-3. It was the one that I sat down with and said - that's the sound I want. All were good of course.

I have tried it with a metal adjustable floating bridge. Used it that way in a light-rock smooth-jazz band for a few years. When I went back to playing more solo stuff and more typical jazz, I switched it back to a wooden bridge

[Gabor]

As a start, find and read Adrian Ingram's book "The Gibson ES-175 - Its History and Players". It's out of print and hard to find - maybe you could get it on interlibrary loan, if your local libraries offer that.

You suggest you're willing to spend quite a lot of money on a guitar that you're not very familiar with, by experience. To my mind, your purchasing interest is premature, but that's your look-out. If you can pay the rent and your children aren't going hungry, then how you spend your money is up to you.

But be aware that there are a number of alternatives to the ES-175. Among things to look for are a mahogany neck, rosewood fingerboard, 24.75" scale length, and plywood ("laminate") construction, and perhaps the neck pickup polepieces being about where the 24th fret would be, though none of these are a guarantee of a particular sound. Some that are worth looking at include the Ibanez PM-200, modeled after a single pickup 175; the Comins GCS-16-1 and GCS-16-2; some Seventy-Seven brand guitars; Heritage H-175s; some Archtop Tribute and other models offered by Walkin in Japan; and, of course Sadowsky, particularly his Jim Hall model. There are others, like Godin, Eastman, and Peerless. All of these can be hard to find, unfortunately. I don't know much about availability in Europe or what other brands might be available there.

But for all that, you can get a very similar sound out of a Telecaster, especially with a neck humbucker. Compare, in particular, the sounds Jim Hall (ES175) and Ed Bickert (Tele, maybe with neck humbucker, maybe not) get on their recordings with Paul Desmond.

Don't fall in love with the appearance of a guitar. Fall in love with it as it sounds when **you** play it.

Telecaster will never sound and will never have the play feel like an es-175 when yourself are playing it holding with your hands. Not even close, that is two different world.

Ed Bickert reasoning is not appropiate, because

a) that is a recording (see my prev sentence)
b) his sound is so dark what really lowers the guitar characteristics, but nobody said, that the es 175 will be used in extreme dark setting
c) we have no Ed Bickert hands.


Regarding comparing Ed Bickert vs Jim Hall sound, Jim Hall sound can be recognized by only one note, (mainly because its picking) ,when one waked up in dawn within 10 sec.

***

The uniqueness of es 175 comes from two unique atttributes: the pickup placement few cms from the neck, and the extra body depth (3.3+ inches) which gives uncomparable unique feel.

[itsmyname]

5000 euros ?

you can get a great kind of 175 from great luthier with high chances that the baby sounds, feels and looks better !

(and the privilege to be "in the guitar" cause having a talk with a luthier who knows what you want and what he can do in this price range is a great experience).

(but that's me !).

[Partagas2b]

Hey everyone,

I can't answer to you all. The fact is I always loved the way ES175 sound. Im a gipsy guitar player, ES175 is a good addition to my arsenal cause the way it feels dont bother me as a solid electric guitar does. Nevertheless, I've played just one nightmarish ES175 from Norlin era which played like shit and sound like it.

I think with 5000 euros im in a grey zone like someone mentioned it. I can't purchase an 1950-60 ES175 because its too high, instead I have find a nice 2011 ES175 CS for 3000 euros which could fit me. Im in discussion for it.

The only ES175 alternative is from a french luthier Jacobacci which made some nice edition (Jacobacci Sacha Distel) but like someone mentioned it too: Could I be really pleased with an alternative of smth I can afford and why should I buy an Ibanez PM (per exemple) instead of a ES175 ? I don't see the point of that thinking.

To answer on the price, yes I have saved 5000 euros. I don't have financial issues. Why should I justify smth like that ?