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Hey all,
About 6 months or so ago I stumbled onto a ‘79 GB20 in a local Guitar Center and I’m still blown away by it. It’s simply, for my left hand, the best playing guitar I’ve ever touched. There’s no fight in it at all. I can get the action lower than anything I’ve ever played with no buzzing whatsoever and it’s go a slinky feel that I love and enables me to go up a gauge without noticing. Full sized arch tops have never been my thing and I’ve always loved the basic idea of a Byrdland (thinline shorter scale L5), but I’ve played a few and most of them have narrow nuts and because they kept it a 22 fret guitar, the neck pickup is too close to the bridge to have a “true” neck position sound. Those are deal breakers for me. I did however just discover that the Ibanez copy (2464) is a 24.75” scale and being that I love my GB so much it could be a great fit.
I’ve played a few Ibanez 175 copies from the earlier 70’s and they were okay but not anywhere remotely close to my GB. I’ve always heard the late 70s was when Ibanez really got rolling in terms of higher quality. It appears the Byrdland copy was made in ‘76 and ‘77 with the 76 having the Gibson headstock shape and the 77 having an original shape. The Gibson shape is more pleasing, but what’s really important is the quality.
Does anyone have enough experience with high end vintage Ibanezes to be able to pinpoint a specific year as far as a turning point for them? I would assume 77 is a safer bet than 76, but maybe they already had it together by 76? If they were anywhere near the GB at that point I’d buy one in heartbeat, but if they were more similar to the 175 copies I’ve played then I would say they’re extremely overpriced.
Anyone own or have owned 76 and/or 77s care to comment?
thanks!
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07-19-2022 10:53 PM
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1979 is the year that Hoshino began working with Fujigen to the specs and electronics that we know as the golden age of Ibanez. They made good guitars before then but after the legal mess that loomed with them making Gibson type guitars, it was about '79 that they made the decision to create their own lines that were original, made to higher standards and at that time, were seen by many as the decisive step in establishing Ibanez as a guitar the equal to and, arguably superior to many Gibsons at that time. Their electronics, attention to detail, quality control, materials, consistency were really stepped up from anything they'd made before. This was before I started working for them but I have a spec book issued to me that has details on construction and history, I don't have it here at home but I can check next time I'm in the shop.
It was at this time, 1980's that they made the George Benson, an original design with his input, the Joe Pass and the AS200 which Scofield made his own signature model. They also made smaller models like the AS50 (Ben Monder plays one of these), and lots of Fujigen small sized guitars that were favourites among rock and to some degree jazz players. This sized guitar would later be used as the model for Gibson's smaller ES-339 guitars.
By the late 80's Ibanez began using other factories throughout Asia and they could no longer claim the exclusively high quality of their prestigious Fujigen guitars but those remained in their Japanese top of the line guitars. GB10 models are still made in the same factory and to the same specs and to an uncanny consistency to the originals (some slight alterations were made in the first few year runs but aside from that they've been pretty much the same spec and quality to date).
The earlier guitars (pre 80's including so called lawsuit models) were made in different Japanese factories so you'll find a different feel in them, not the detail, weight or response that you noticed from your GB. The earlier guitars (Terada, Fujigen mostly) were part of Hoshino's "learning the ropes" guitars.
Personally, I think it was during the 80's that they really found their stride. I know lots of people like the lawsuits, but for me, I never thought they held their own against the best American handmade and factory guitars but in the 80's they made a professional roadworthy and artful instrument that did establish them and Japanese guitars in the world pro market.
Hope this is helpful.
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I think that selecting the right model is more important than the year of build. My tip for you: There is this book covers almost every vintage Ibanez guitar model. The book was written by Harry Kruisselbrink (fellow Dutchman) and I have owned a couple of vintage Ibanez guitars that were very good guitar. I had the Johnny Smith double model 2461, the 175 model 2455 and 345 model 2467. The last one is even depicted in that book at page 95. All of them great guitars. But be aware of problems with the binding on some of the 70s models. Some have a problem, some dont
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Byrdland neck pickup is positioned at the 24th fret. Same as L5 or ES 175.
Originally Posted by jhall1984
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It was around 1978 that Ibanez went all in on making the very best guitars they could possibly make, according to Jim Donahue (as noted in the book "Ibanez - the Untold Story").
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I’ve always fancied one of the
‘88 to ‘03 AF200’s
not a lot of them about ....
especially a blond one
I play the Korean equivalent AF120
which is pretty good
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Thanks for the info! I was hoping to hear the year was a little bit earlier but it is what it is I suppose. The first Benson models debuted in ‘77 to I was really hoping that would be the year. Though I’ve read some people speak of the incredibly low action on their Byrdland copies, maybe they just didn’t have the consistency together. Then again, I haven’t played any other 79s so maybe mine is just a great one. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Thanks, I’ll check that out! My ‘79 has the binding issue but that’s just cosmetic and doesn’t bother me at all. It’s also heavy and dead acoustically which I prefer as in my personal experience it’s just easier to get a good amplified sound at a higher volume with them. The 2464 looks perfect on paper, I’m just more concerned with whether or not it will feel anything like the Benson. With all the talk of Ibanez really transforming in those years I’m just worried it could feel, in terms of playability, completely unrelated to my GB, like going from a mid 70’s Norlin to a late 80s-early 90s Gibson feels like a completely different manufacturer. I’m looking for the feel of the GB with the dimensions of the 2464. Originally Posted by hotpepper01
I think that selecting the right model is more important than the year of build. My tip for you: There is this book covers almost every vintage Ibanez guitar model. The book was written by Harry Kruisselbrink (fellow Dutchman) and I have owned a couple of vintage Ibanez guitars that were very good guitar. I had the Johnny Smith double model 2461, the 175 model 2455 and 345 model 2467. The last one is even depicted in that book at page 95. All of them great guitars. But be aware of problems with the binding on some of the 70s models. Some have a problem, some dont
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correct, but the distance from the bridge is what determines the warmth and roundness of the sound, not it’s relation to scale. The 24th fret of a 23.5” scale is far closer to the bridge. Its almost like being a middle position pickup on a 25.5” scale. Making it a 20 fret guitar and scooting the neck pickup towards the neck would have given it a more traditional neck pickup sound for this reason. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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The absolute distance from the bridge is not what determines the roundness of sound when comparing different scale length guitars. It is the ratio of string length and the distance from the bridge is what matters since the pickup placement determines the overtone content detected by the pickup. For example Stratocaster (and Telecaster) neck pickups have longer absolute distance from the bridge than Les Pauls (or generally other short scale guitars). But the ratio of overall string length to neck pickup distance is very similar in these guitars. Also for the same gauge string, the shorter scale length would have less tension. Originally Posted by jhall1984
Last edited by Tal_175; 07-26-2022 at 09:13 PM.
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Yes, the scale length will effect tension which would effect sound but could be somewhat compensated for with string gauge. I didn’t think the physics out thoroughly. I agree it’s not all about an exact length from the bridge and it is related to scale as there is likely no one size fits all distance, but I think I’m likely correct in that the pickup must be moved back to approximate the neck position sound of a traditional box, which would be a larger scale. I’ve played several short scale guitars including Byrdlands and particularly on the treble strings they have always had a noticeably thinner, zingier sound as opposed to a more bubbly pop I typically get in the neck in my experience. Originally Posted by Tal_175
I don’t know the physics of exactly why this would be, but I do know that moving the pickup back will result a warmer, more rounded sound even if it is further back in relation to its scale than longer scale guitars. It seems to me a shorter scale requires that to achieve a comparable sound.
One of my archtops used to be fitted with an old dearmond rhythm chief and the pickguard had a slot that enabled you to slide the pickup within about a 2 inch range. When you slid it all the way forward it took on the sound I associate with short scale guitars which led me to believe moving it back on a short scale would likely help.
Maybe the shorter length of string just results in a narrower width of vibration and it needs to be moved further back to achieve the same width as a longer scale would have at that position. Keeping the ratio the same seems like it would work on paper, but maybe the bridge has an overpowering auditory effect within a certain proximity that isn’t completely relative to the ratio. Or maybe it’s like tension and perceived tightness of strings (factors being scale, string length, break angle, neck rigidity, string manufacturer) where physics would suggest more consistency than than actually exists in real world experience and there must be other hidden factors. I don’t know, but either way I’m fairly confident moving the pickup back would help in mitigating the difference in amplified sound.
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Yes, it's interesting. There can be other factors. I think pickup placement mainly affects the amount of overtone content vs the fundamental. Bridge pickups are more overtone heavy and neck pickups are more fundamental heavy. When comparing guitars with different scale lengths, maintaining the proportional placement (such as 24th fret), I think means having the same overtone/fundamental characteristics. However shorter-scale length also has less tension for the same gauge string, so I always thought that smaller scale guitars would have a rounder tone for the same proportional pickup placement but who knows what else is also in play.
Last edited by Tal_175; 07-20-2022 at 07:24 PM.
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Yes, it’s pretty interesting indeed. I just had another thought that could help explain short scales having kind of a “middle pickup” sound and that’s the magnetic field of the pickup itself. Since the pickup isn’t scaled down with the guitar I would guess it would be picking a broader range of the short scale’s sound spectrum(couldn’t think of a better word). Meaning both more fundamentals and overtones which could result in more of a middle position sound. So simply moving it back wouldn’t necessarily sound like the neck of a longer scale but something different, even more fundamental, maybe too much. It may still be closer to a traditional neck sound than before, but probably not the same.
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I've had some very good 77 year Ibanez. Aria were also good around then, bringing out the Robert Conti model. Originally Posted by jhall1984
It's true that late 70's early 80's is sweet spot but 77 is also very good.
The issue you might find is that some of the 'copies' aren't actually very good. Mostly due to the top being too thick. Their laminates 'spruce' tops were pretty dead sounding.
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I've owned two GB20's (from the late 70's and one early 80's) with around 4 years between these two - could never coax the tones I wanted out of these boxes, beautiful and functional as they were. Yes, the quality is super and the necks on the Benson models is one of my all-time favorites but as others have mentioned earlier : the tone is, compared with the american equivalents, in most cases somewhat underwhelming. I found me a very nice 2008 GB15 this year and that guitar is - for me - an exception to the rule : great tone, response, ergonomics and it's road-worthiness is un-paralleled. If push does NOT come to shove it's a keeper.
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Raney and Abersold, great interview.
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