Heavy strings and forearm fatigue - are jazz guitarists simply used to it?

[kenneho]

Hi.

I see so many jazz players using heavy gauge strings, and seem to be happy with it. I did have 10's on my Les Paul-esque guitar for a while, albeit with round core strings to make them easier on my forearm muscles, but that's about it. Regular hex-core 10's are too heavy - my forearm muscles gets fatigued in minutes. (I'm not telling you what gauge I'm using on my hollow-body for the time being - it's crazy low. And that even with the string action set so low that I'm just above fret buzz territory). Sound-wise and playability-wise I do prefer 10s, but my forearm disagrees.

So this gets me wondering: There's a lot of different string types out there, so may it be that the typical jazz strings folks use simply are easier on the muscles than those regular Ernie Ball nickel wound type of strings one typically come across in guitar stores? Are flat wound strings easier on the forearm muscles?

I'm guessing that the answer is that typical jazz players simply endure the extra strain heavy strings cause the forearm muscles, but thought I'd reach out to the community and share my thoughts.

[Jim Soloway]

Not me. I use light strings and then tune them down a full step so the tension is even lighter. I want as little tension as I can have and still maintain control of the strings.

[rpjazzguitar]

We're talking about left forearm?

Heavy strings make my fingers hurt. Never had a problem with the forearm.

I use 11 - 42 on my Comins GCS-1. That's a set of 09-42, throw away the 9 and add a 13. Result is 11 13 17 24 32 42 iirc. The idea is to lighten the overall pressure while using a thick enough high E string to avoid it sounding tinny. I don't like much bass in my tone, so the lighter lower strings don't bother me, except maybe for tuning stability on the low E.

Right arm would get uncomfortable with too large a body.

There are some setup and design issues which affect how much pressure you need to exert with your left hand. A trapeze tailpiece helps. Good setup with a properly slotted nut.

[deacon Mark]

Frankly the strings and gauge are relative to the player. I use normally .12-52 but on occasion have gone .12-54, my requirement is normally the 3rd string should be .24 I find .22 to be too thin and does not ring correct. Also given the guitar sometimes I have put a .13 on the top and even and .11

These to me are not heavy at all. Heavy is .16 to .56 and above. I believe Pat Martino used a set that big and others too. I find that a .10 is just too hard for me to control I have too much pressure and it will go out of tune. Some guitars also have just a stiffer feeling depending on the scale length.

To me it is what a person is used to playing. I do think that completely playing fingerstyle probably is better on lighter strings but again this is just me. I don't think is has anything to do with enduring the extra strain. In fact, I liken this to any physical activity that a person might do. My son is a runner like myself however he is gifted and fast on his feet. He has no problem going out on a training run of 5-8 miles at a 6:50 mile pace. Many in shape runners that train cannot hold that type of pace for long. He does not begin straining till the miles go well under 6-minute pace. It is what he is used too.

I heard a story that Joe Pass like to feel resistance when he played, and he actually recorded his landmark original Virtuoso album tuning the guitar up about 1/2 step. I don't know I have listened to the recording it seems a million times but not sure if it is above standard pitch.

[hotpepper01]

I think that is very personal. To me, the tune/song that I have to play, dictates more or less the guitar and thus the string gauge. For the more funky-pop-rock tunes, I use a LP or a 335. that are strung with 11-46 or so. The archtops for bigband swing are usually equipped with 12-50. I have one L5CES that has even heavier strings on and a D'Angelico NY that have the TI GB, I think 14-55.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

We're all different in many ways, only one of which is how much muscle we can develop and how strong we can get. So we each pick our strings based on many factors - hand size, muscle strength, physical limitations and compromises, etc. Apart from us JGO geezers, I see and hear about very few players using anything bigger than sets of 10 or 11 to upper 40s / low 50s. And most new guitars today come out of the factory strung with sets that should be labeled "human hair - capellini".

I'm one of those who can't develop big muscles no matter what I do. I've always eaten well and amply. I've exercised daily since I was in high school. I did 100 situps and 60 pushups every morning for decades and only stopped for this year because I had hernia repair about 9 months ago. I resumed bench pressing light weights (100 repetitions every morning) when my surgeon told me I could. I do 30 minutes on an elliptical machine every afternoon, and from May to September I swim a minimum of 20 lengths of the pool in our apartment complex. But I've never developed big muscles anywhere, even when I did more serious weight lifting through high school and college. I've maintained the same unremarkable size and shape and worn the same size clothing for over 50 years, no matter what I do. I did start to gain weight when I reached 35 or so, but I quickly cut that back by eliminating beer from our refrigerator. And over the years, I've steadily eaten less of the fattening stuff and less in general. I grew up on seafood, fruits, and vegetables and I love the Mediterranean style of eating - so I had a good start. I think this helps my playing and stamina.

I've used what are apparently now considered heavy strings for 65+ years. I think my first guitar (a $10 United Elitone, proudly made in New Jersey!) was strung with baling wire. But from my first Gibson (a new '57 or '58 LG-1 - we just bought stuff out of the store back then and didn't obsess over when it was made or pick other nits), I used nothing lighter than 13-56. When I got my first elecrics (a used 345, then a used 175), I stuck with what I knew but went flatwound. When Guild introduced the EA-610 series, the first "lights" were not light, as I described in an earlier thread on the same subject:

When Guild came out with "lighter" flats (EA610s), I tried a set, loved them, and switched to them until they wre discontinued years later. Those first lighter EA610s were 13-58, with the later introduction of an 11-53 set they called EA610L when the 13s became EA610M. They subsequently went even lighter and added SLs. Back then, I only had one guitar for all gigs and used it for everything from thunk to funk.

But I've also used hand grip excercisers since high school. My grip strength remains high, and I've never had the kinds of discomfort I hear about from other players. I think you have to respect your own limits and use what feels best to you. I wouldn't "endure" any pain at all in order to use anything - guitar, strings, etc. Pain is nature's way of telling you you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, and the wise person takes it seriously. You might consider trying hand grip exercise devices, starting gently with a few squeezes every day and working up both force and number of repetitions as you can tolerate it. If it hurts, I strongly suggest that you stop doing it - whatever it is! I've had this set for many years:

[bluejaybill]

I recently came home from a week away and picked up my arch top, only to find that my forearm started to tire very quickly. This told me that I had built up some muscle strength and lost it over a week.

I quickly got it back however, and for now will continue with .012 strings, not particularly heavy to some but enough to hold intonation, which the .010's I have on my solid bodies don't do as well. As I get older though the idea of going down a gauge becomes more appealing....

[JohanAbrandt]

Heavier strings can take lower action without buzzing, so that helps a bit. I remember getting fatigue in the hand when going up a gauge, for about a week or so before getting used to the higher tension and gradually lowering the action

[charleyrich99]

Do carved top archtops need heavier strings to get them to vibrate sufficiently or will 11's do it?

[starjasmine]

Interesting replies... I think it is a combination of personal expectations/preferences, setup of an individual guitar, string brand, and how much you play overall.

@never while I've not totally avoided exercise (back in the day I did Alpine skiing, SCUBA, running, lifting, and plenty of dragging heavy amps around) I have tried to avoid being muscle-bound because I was worried that it might affect my speed and dexterity. In retrospect, that's probably not an issue ... but muscle fatigue can affect speed and dexterity temporarily. I can't play for sh-- when I am wiped out after an afternoon of yardwork... like so tired that I can't lift the chainsaw or shovel one more time... I've never done any hand-grip-strengthening exercises - playing hours on end every day for years did the trick for me.

What you expect + individual guitar + string brand seems to be where a lot of variation can come in. My Byrdland is strung low with LaBella black tape 14-67 and the neck was almost too fast when I first got it - it took a couple months of daily playing to refine my muscle reflex for the action that was lower and faster than what I was used to.

That said, my mechanical technique adjusts a bit (I can't really quantify it, unfortunately, because I am still experimenting) for two other guitars [LP Deluxe and a pointy :-) Charvel Model 6] that are strung with 009-042 Ernie roundwounds. Each of these have very different necks, but the common factor is that light-gauge strings give the RH less to pick against and I really don't bend strings on the archtop. That's what the pointy guitar and its Uncle Les are for :-)

I have a USA-made Parker Fly Deluxe strung with Elixir 10s, and its neck is so different than the others that I couldn't just say it is in the middle between heavy and light strings. It's just... a different animal than the others...

I never have any sort of LH finger pain - I grew up playing folk guitar for a good 8 years before I touched my first electric guitar, (which was actually a bass guitar - I played bass for years and even played double bass for a couple of years.) I also played nylon-string classic for a few years before switching to jazz... bottom line, my LH calluses are well-established. I do sometimes feel a bit of tiredness or soreness in the tendons or musculature of my LH forearm after playing the archtop for extended periods of time, but as far as pain it is less than 1 on a scale of 10.

My LH technique is rooted in classical hand position, but a bit more relaxed (thumb at less than 90 degrees straight up) with occasional excursions into thumb-over-the-top as necessary. The LH classical technique is very efficient, so that may be another reason I pretty much never feel fingertip pain.

Now... I don't even own a folk guitar. That might be another reason I don't feel LH fingertip pain :-)

HTH

SJ

[Peter C]

No, flatwound strings are not easier on your muscles. If you're entertaining giving them a try, check out the Thomastik Infeld Jazz Swings in guage 10 or 11, which are (relatively) low tension.

[burchyk]

I would not sweat it too much. We're all different.

I'm heavy handed and the Thomastik 14-55 roundwounds feel great. Anything lighter I just get reduced dynamic range and intonation problems from pressing the strings too hard. My action is somewhere between an acoustic and electric with little to no neck relief.

I suspect Mr. Martino had the same issue. Don't think it even strongly correlates to general body strength. From what I've read and seen Pat was physically smaller and rather frail looking.

[starjasmine]

No, flatwound strings are not easier on your muscles. If you're entertaining giving them a try, check out the Thomastik Infeld Jazz Swings in guage 10 or 11, which are (relatively) low tension.

Agreed - the reason I mentioned brands in my last post is that tension can vary a lot between different brands of the same gauge strings. I've never tried TIs, amazingly (as they are so well-regarded) but have done quite a bit of experimenting with different brands of 9s and 10s, and there can be quite a difference. Maybe the OP should try out some different brands in the same gauge ... with the understanding that a truss-rod tool will come in handy...

[starjasmine]

not particularly heavy to some but enough to hold intonation, which the .010's I have on my solid bodies don't do as well.

IDK whether gauge is the problem so much as other factors like the particular guitar, temperature variations, humidity... I can leave the Parker and the Charvel in the closet for months and they will still be in tune, amazingly, but I have to retune my Gibsons (solid body and archtop) almost daily. And those months might be NorCal months where temperature and humidity are pretty constant... just a thought.

[st.bede]

When I realized that I had developed bad carpel tunnel syndrome, I went to a San Francisco based doctor, who specialized in working with musicians. He had me bring my guitar. He watched me play, to make sure my playing was not creating strain. Since I had developed a good classical position, over all I was doing well. He did notice, that I would start to fold into the guitar as I focused. Which of course was bad.

It is important to not create strain. We are doing repetitive actions.

No doctor could tell me how much or how little I could play. At one point I had to give up playing guitar for years. CTS hurt a lot, until I had the operations. (Things are much better now. That is a long story).

When it comes to physical health and being able to play guitar: who cares about: what guitar, what strings, or even how good the tone is. Better to find a different way to achieve (as close as possible) what is desired, and keep playing guitar. (Pedals, pickups, and amps can help add weight and massage tone).

I always think that, if I would of just stopped playing guitar for a year, when I first developed CTS, I would have not spent a couple decades of not being able to really play guitar. However, I was like a train going at full speed. Took awhile to refocus.

[John A.]

I’ve never experienced forearm pain or fatigue from playing guitar with any gauge (I use 12’s on my archtop and 10s on my semi and strat, FWIW). I’ve never heard of this before, and I don’t think this sort of pain is something jazz guys just learn to live with. Could be something with your technique or something physical with you. Both are worth looking into. In the meantime, play the strings you can tolerate.

[Alter]

I think difficulty has more to do with the action, the setup and the quality of the guitar, rather than the string gauge.

If the guitar can handle low action, and it has sound, it's easy to play even with heavy strings.

I actually can't play light strings, 9s for example, I'm a bit heavy handed for them. Maybe at home, but live no way..

[j4zz]

Do carved top archtops need heavier strings to get them to vibrate sufficiently or will 11's do it?

Not just carved. I have a 3-ply archtop that only sounds good with at least 12s on it.

[mr. beaumont]

I've found heavier strings even easier on my hands, as I can set the action much lower and still be buzz free.

[sgosnell]

I have fewer issues with heavy strings than with light strings. Heavier strings allow lower action, which is easier for me to play. I don't like trying to fret thin strings with high action, because it hurts my fingers. But if the action is too high, heavy strings can be hard to play. They need perfect nut slots and a straight neck with little or no relief, plus having the bridge as low as it can go without too much fret buzz. The usual cause of a hard to play guitar is, IME, high nut slots, which makes everything too high. Given a good setup, heavy strings aren't hard for me to play, even as old as I am.

[RJVB]

I've had this set for many years:

Me too, and it actually looks identical.
(EDIT: looking more closely I notice that the braces that hold the springs in place are closed in the picture, limiting how far you can close the grips - with mine I can bring the grips together so use them in both orientations.)

Heh, it must be about 40 years ago that the guitar teacher of music school where I grew up agreed to come over to have a look at my mom's guitar which I'd found in storage (the old German archtop I've written about before). He noticed the grip trainers and asked jokingly if those were standard violinist tools (classical violinists are typically maybe even more delicate about their fingers than pianists).

I still find that using these regularly helps preventing and even curing beginning RSI symptoms.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

looking more closely I notice that the braces that hold the springs in place are closed in the picture, limiting how far you can close the grips - with mine I can bring the grips together so use them in both orientations.).

You caught me - I used a web pic out of laziness. Here are mine, sitting on my bedside table. They close completely. I don’t think they’d be as beneficial if they didn’t.

[Marinero]

I've always said that musicians are the athletes among artists. Those who play acoustic-electric guitars and want a big sound will usually gravitate towards heavier strings to reach their goal. However, most guitarists do not take the time to build muscles when buying heavier strings. For example, if you're playing 10's/11's, you shouldn't jump to 13's on your next string change. Move up in string gauge and spend a few months, or more, building the muscles needed to play the heavier gauges. And, once you've changed, keep your practice times shorter until you've made the transition. Also, those who have studied Classical Guitar will greatly benefit their Jazz Guitar playing by using the clean, functional technique necessary to play CG. Simple dynamics of Physics in finger/hand positioning is essential. I have been playing D'Addario 12-52 Chromes for about nine months(previously Pure Nickel) and recently bought a separate 13 and 17 for my first two strings which is giving my ears a rounder sound and better hand feel for my taste. However, if you're only changing to heavier gauges because it is what you're supposed to do by the Jazz Gurus, you're missing the point. For me, string choice must match the sound you seek in your head otherwise, you're on a fast track to forearm fatigue/injury without a reason.
Marinero

[Cunamara]

Musicians are small muscle athletes. We use the large muscle groups just enough to hold ourselves upright through a gig or rehearsal.

I have a suspicion that the preference for heavier gauge strings for jazz guitar dates back to the days when we were playing acoustically and the heavy string was needed to drive the instrument enough to be heard. Jim Hall and Ed Bickert both used light gauge strings (0.010s) and I rarely hear complaints about their tones. But if you are very interested in acoustic archtop guitar tone, you probably will prefer heavier gauge strings; if you're really only interested in the electric tone, string gauge is less of an issue. I think lighter strings offer more overtones and heavier strings offer more fundamental.

I have switched to 0.011s on all of my electric guitars including my archtops. I find that to be a good compromise. I use SITs except for my 17" archtop which gets Martin Retro Monels; I also use those on my flattop.

[One_Note]

There isn't a lot of string bending in jazz so I don't see why heavy strings would be a strain.