School me on vintage Kalamazoo archtops

[Webby]

So I guess I'm trying to tap into the collective JGO-Knowledge here:

I've stumble across this listing and need some advice, as I won't be able to try the guitar in advance.

I'm totally into vintage Swing, so I've been browsing through vintage guitar sales for many years, hoping to maybe find a great deal some day. I'm based in germany, so there are not too many of those old American archtops around that i adore so much.

The guitar in questions is from the 40s and was made by kalamazoo. The body looks exactly like an L-48, but at some point in it's live a P90 pickup was added. (plus for me, as I'm looking for something electric). The seller says tailpiece and tuners are non original, and some of the lacquer has been removed. Basically somebody tried to make an Es-125 out of it.

The listing has been online for quite a while, so I'm afraid it might not be that great of a deal to begin with. I couldn't find another guitar like that, and don't know how its value would compare to an original gibson. I'm afraid I might end up paying too much for it.

What would you guys say would be a fair price for a guitar like that?

There are also some other things I'm a little worried about:

1. the guitar does not have a trussrod. Seller claims that the neck is straight though.

2. the listing states it has a V-neck. I haven't played one of these vintage V-necks, but I have tried a loar and could not get along with it at all. I feel like this guitar might be in that ballpark, and I guess that would be a dealbreaker for me.

Just trying to get some input here, as I can't seem to get it out of my mind.

Paul

[Webby]

Here's a picture of the guitar in question:

[AllanAllen]

Kalamazoo is the same quality as Kay, Harmony, Stella, all those catalog guitars. Some have been refurbished and cost $3,000 some are worthless wall hangers.

You need to play it in person or get pictures of the action this can’t be adjusted with no trussrod and a set neck.

I would not but this without playing it first.

[Little Jay]

I played a Kalamazoo KG-31 archtop with V-neck in a local music shop and did not like it at all… and it didn’t feel like I could get used to it. Of course that doesn’t mean you won’t like it, but just a warning…

The body of the guitar in your picture looks exactly like a Gibson, including the shape of the f-holes. The Kalamazoo I played had very different f-holes:



(asking price was around $2800 btw, which I would have never ever paid for it).

If the Kalamazoo you are looking at is made by Gibson I would venture to say that the quality will be significantly better than Kay or Harmony.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Kalamazoo is the same quality as Kay, Harmony, Stella, all those catalog guitars. Some have been refurbished and cost $3,000 some are worthless wall hangers.

You need to play it in person or get pictures of the action this can’t be adjusted with no trussrod and a set neck.

I would not but this without playing it first.

I would have to disagree with the quality statement. Kalamazoos are generally significantly superior to the other brands you mention. The highest end models even have carved tops, rather than pressed. I agree with playing it first or having a no hassle return. BUT if you didn’t like a Loar V neck and this one has a hard V, I seriously doubt that you will like this Kalamazoo.


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[AllanAllen]

I thought Kalamazoo was shortened to Kay and they were made at the same place.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I thought Kalamazoo was shortened to Kay and they were made at the same place.

Kalamazoo guitars were made by Gibson. Gibson made several similar lines under other brand names during the Great Depression. Some confusion may lie in the fact that some catalog brands like Recording King and Old Kraftsman were originally made by Gibson but were later made by Kay.


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[sgosnell]

Kay and Kalamazoo were entirely different companies, with no relation at any time. Kay was a very early company, formed in 1931, after the founder, Henry Kuhrmeyer (thus the K) had built electric guitars with Stromberg starting in 1928. It built lots of guitars for lots of companies, but not Kalamazoo. Kalamazoo was Gibson's budget guitar company before it bought out Epiphone and reduced that very capable competitor to a budget line. Old Kraftsman was Spiegel's house brand. I have one that my father bought from the Spiegel catalog, made by Kay, with the huge headstock. It's actually a nice guitar, an ES330 copy.

[Sam Sherry]

Kalamazoo (and Cromwell, which was a nearly-identical Gibson low-line) were built by Gibson in the Depression years. They were built in . . . Kalamazoo, doncha think. They wood quality was good and occasionally excellent.

Most of the model-shapes were directly from Gibson models and were apparently built on the Gibson forms (16" archtop, L-00 acoustic, A-mandolin). KZoo made a 14" mini-dreadnaught flat-top which had no Gibson analog.

The number-one distinction from the Gibson line was construction shortcuts. The flat-tops are ladder-braced, not "X." That's why you will sometimes see them glossed-over as 'blues guitars.' The archtops are pressed, not carved. On the one hand, it's not easy to stand behind a screen and say, "That guitar has a pressed top." On the other hand, I've never played a pressed-top archtop that just dropped my jaw (although I'm sure somebody here has).

The other construction shortcut is that KZoos don't have adjustable truss rods -- they have gigantic boat-necks instead. What that means for you, the player, is you better like 'em large! What it means for you, the owner, is that if you need a refret it's going to have to be done by someone who is familiar with adjusting neck-bow by varying fret-tang width, i.e. a vintage CF Martin specialist. Budget accordingly.

I've had a bunch. They are fun, funky and sound great if accepted on their own terms. As the noted 20th-century philosopher Popeye The Sailor Man once put it, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam."

[ThatRhythmMan]

Kalamazoo (and Cromwell, which was a nearly-identical Gibson low-line) were built by Gibson in the Depression years. They were built in . . . Kalamazoo, doncha think. They wood quality was good and occasionally excellent.

Most of the model-shapes were directly from Gibson models and were apparently built on the Gibson forms (16" archtop, L-00 acoustic, A-mandolin). KZoo made a 14" mini-dreadnaught flat-top which had no Gibson analogue.

The number-one ditinction from the Gibson line was construction shortcuts. The flat-tops are ladder-braced, not "X." That's why you will sometimes see them glossed-over as 'blues guitars.' The archtops are pressed, not carved. On the one hand, it's not easy to stand behind a screen and say, "That guitar has a pressed top." On the other hand, I've never played a pressed-top archtop that just dropped my jaw (although I'm somebody here has).

The other construction shortcut is that KZoos don't have adjustable truss rods -- they have gigantic boat-necks instead. What that means for you, the player, is you better like 'em large! What it means for you, the owner, is that if you need a refret it's going to have to be done by someone who is familiar with adjusting neck-bow by varying fret-tang width, i.e. a vintage CF Martin specialist. Budget accordingly.

I've had a bunch. They are fun, funky and sound great if accepted on their own terms. As the noted 20th-century philosopher Popeye The Sailor Man once put it, "I yam what I yam and that'a all that I yam."

They don’t all have gigantic necks by any means and while they don’t have truss rods, they do have steel reinforcement rods in the necks.

I agree that some of the pressed top ones can be amazing, but the top end Kalamazoos had hand carved tops, not pressed. Archtop bracing was done basically the same as the Gibson ones of the era, either fully carved x-braces or kerfed parallel.


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[Webby]

Thanks to all of you for chiming in!

I feel like you probably confirmed what I had been suspecting: I guess this one will probably not be for me.

I played a Kalamazoo KG-31 archtop with V-neck in a local music shop and did not like it at all… and it didn’t feel like I could get used to it. Of course that doesn’t mean you won’t like it, but just a warning…

BUT if you didn’t like a Loar V neck and this one has a hard V, I seriously doubt that you will like this Kalamazoo.

The neck thing is actually my main concern, and I feel like that might be one of the reasons the guitar hasn't sold yet. Especially as the seller rates the frets as 5/10, and I'm not ready for that much trouble for a refret.

What it means for you, the owner, is that if you need a refret it's going to have to be done by someone who is familiar with adjusting neck-bow by varying fret-tang width, i.e. a vintage CF Martin specialist. Budget accordingly.

The body of the guitar in your picture looks exactly like a Gibson, including the shape of the f-holes. The Kalamazoo I played had very different f-holes:

I'm almost certain that is a Gibson body, and therefore thought it might be a good deal, but with all those neck-issues I feel like it's probably to expensive for me at an asking price of 1.590€

Thanks everybody! Guess I'll wait untill the right ES-125 comes along!

[Gitterbug]

Ahem... lots of folks here hoping to stumble on the right 1950s German archtop. And don't forget the newer Levins with truss rods and DeArmond PU's. Carved tops from Carpathian spruce. Halkans in Stockholm seems to have a collection of 40, accessible through Vintage&Rare.

[Litterick]

We need to talk about Levin. I nearly bought a 1961 335M2 at auction a while ago, but it disappeared before I could bid. Nice-looking guitars; I don't know what they sound like.

[Gitterbug]

We need to talk about Levin. I nearly bought a 1961 335M2 at auction a while ago, but it disappeared before I could bid. Nice-looking guitars; I don't know what they sound like.

In 1900, Herman Carlson Levin founded his guitar company in Gothenburg. The company was sold to C.F.Martin in the 1970s and was soon closed. Serial numbers run to over 500,000, and I think the larger part of the production consisted of flattop guitars, mandolins a guitar lutes. Levin's archtops became the standard in Scandinavia and popular in UK as well, due to high prices and import restrictions on US made products. There's a plethora of models and I'm no expert. There's got to be many better sources among Forum members.