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L5 CES and Super 400 CES are not acoustic guitars. L5C, Super 400C, and Johnny Smith are the comparable high end Gibson acoustic arch tops.
You can come really really close to what Setzer is playing with an L7 for a lot less money. They are L5Cs with a bit less fancy binding and nickel instead of gold hardware. I personally prefer prewar. Some folks will pay a premium for X bracing and cutaways.
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01-07-2023 03:32 PM
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The Guitars I ended up with are not Gibsons, so maybe not a good reference for you. I have a Campellone acoustic with floater that I commissioned, and a Borys arch top that I found used. In my case, I was interested in the specs os 1 3/4" nut and 25" scale length, which is the formula on a Gibson Johnnie Smith. BTW, not a bad guitar for you to look at.
Originally Posted by Gold Finger
Concerning vintage L5's and S400's, wow, that is a very difficult market. I have vintage Fenders and Martins and those markets are much easier to understand, in addition to being types of guitars that are more in demand. Vintage arch tops are more of a niche market, and harder to value IMHO. Another thing, high end Gibson arch tops in the '50's were extremely expensive, and were not purchased by amateur enthusiasts for the most part, they were bought by top shelf pro players. I believe that many of them would have had to have been ordered. Not that many were made. And then they were played professionally, and often got pretty beat up. They often have non original parts, and major repairs and refinishing. Even D'Angellicos, which have been valuable and hoarded for decades, are hard to find in clean original condition- again, pro players mostly ordered them, take a look at his ledger books, they are filled with professional names. It is much more common to find clean examples of vintage Fender guitars and lower end Gibsons. People lost interest and stuck them under the bed. Not so an expensive L5.
I think that particular L5 is priced very high, probably due to the Bonomassa connection. One question you would need to answer is whether you like those staple pickups. My recollection from limited experience is that they were very high output, and I believe I preferred P90's to them. Others may disagree. $20K+ seems like a bit of a reach to me, YMMV. And remember, vintage guitar land is shark invested water- buyer beware! I think I would probably start with a '90's-present day L5 if I was in your shoes, that would help you to zero in on what you are actually looking for. It took me a while to figure that out last year, and I have owned vintage L5's and other arch tops in the past.
Good luck with your search!Last edited by bluejaybill; 01-07-2023 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Modern L5’s and Campellone’s rule in my book.
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I’ll just chime in here to add that I wanted an electric L5 forever! Finally a couple years ago I bought a nice blonde from ‘83. Workmanship was unbelievable! But the sound was ho-hum, the build was just too heavy. Especially compared to my ‘38 l-12. Well a year later I got the shot at a golden era l5 with 2 PAFs no less. I sold the ‘83 to help fund it and the difference was might and day tone wise. The norlin l5 actually had more precise craftsmanship but the neck angle was so wrong on the norlin (they made a big change on L5s in 1970 by raising the neck up higher off the top the destroyed the feel and tone).
But all that to say that you should hold out for your dream guitar, because it’s worth it. Also only buy from extremely reputable people/dealers. The vintage guitar world is full of scumbags unfortunately.
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And modern S400’s too. Hutch and Culbertson Gibson archtops are some of the best ever IMO.
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It's interesting that your list doesn't include the very first thing I think about, and check, when considering a new guitar. Originally Posted by Gold Finger
Does the neck fit my hand? This is about every dimension, including scale length.
If so, the second thing is, does it feel comfortable to play? This covers things like the size of the body, whether the lower bout suits the way I like to hold a guitar, whether it balances etc.
Third thing I check is whether the high notes (high E 10th fret and up) ring out clearly, sustain and sound full. I need that for my style.
Fourth thing is whether chords sound good. I think the answer is usually yes for quality archtops, but it's an issue. On my current main instrument I'm happy with my single-note tone and less happy with the sound of chords.
As a result, I don't see how anybody can recommend a specific guitar to me. I can't even do it for myself. I have to walk around a store putting my hand on necks.
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I personally like the tone better on the modern heavier builds of today but every ear is different. I like a more electric less acoustic archtop tone.
Also the modern neck profiles fit my hand like a glove. Some of those vintage guitars have huge necks or the Norlin skinny nut years.Last edited by vinnyv1k; 01-07-2023 at 04:58 PM.
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just a note Vinny, the Norlin days saw a return to the 1 11/16" nut on archtops
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Not in the beginning but yes you are correct. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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technically Norlin aquired Gibson in '69, 1 11/16" nuts returned in mid '69 Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Isn't there a rule against overloading a thread with guitar porn? Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
And modern S400’s too. Hutch and Culbertson Gibson archtops are some of the best ever IMO.
Simply beautiful!
Tony
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Quite right. Some people seem to think that the 1965-1969 era of unpopular changes (like the skinny nuts) to Gibson guitars was the Norlin era. That is not the case. But the Norlin era did bring about many other unpopular changes of its own like heavier builds, plain woods and declining quality. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I had a 77 Byrdland, 76 335, 78 S400 with skinny nuts. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Don't think much of this 'heirloom' discussion has a great deal to do with tone or play-ability. Any more than a Rolex has to do with telling the time. That's fine of course.. until somebody decides they want the next upscale thing and discovers Montelleone. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Last edited by Spook410; 01-07-2023 at 06:31 PM.
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Some Birdies in the 70s had narrow nuts, Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Same w non carved Gibsons of that era though I've never seen a post '69 Super or L5 w a narrow nut.
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Well winter you are probably right.
My 77 Byrdland was special ordered by me but the 335 and S400 I bought off the rack. Though new they could have been NOS.
Back then I was a puppy and had no idea how to date a serial no. I just knew the year I bought them.
I remember buying another 335 in 1979 and couldn’t believe how wide the nut was.
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Thank you for the friendly advice and I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from. I started this thread hoping to learn more about archtop guitars. Specifically the higher end solid top carved vintage and modern variety from people that own and play them. I have received a ton of great information so far. A lot of people seem to be fixated on my investment comment for some reason. I don't mean to imply that I hope to acquire this guitar and flip it 2 years from now for 3 times what I paid. I just want to have a solid understanding of the market so I know what I'm getting into. Originally Posted by whiskey02
I'm not going into this totally blind. I have been collecting for 31 years. I know what I like and dislike and for this amount of money I would absolutely have to play the guitar first. I absolutely prefer larger 50s style necks with 52 Telecaster and 57/58 Les Pauls being my favorite. I have a preference for vintage style construction methods and materials (hide glue, nitrocellulose lacquer ... superficial stuff.) On the other hand, I have not had the opportunity to play a whole bunch of L5s, Super 400s with a variety of pickups. So I really can't say if I would prefer an acoustic model with an aftermarket floater or a top mounted humbucker etc. I have owned my fair share of high end Martin and Gibson acoustics both vintage and modern, along with a Gretsch or 3. I am well aware of neck problems, binding rot, collapsed tops etc. So I would not say that I am totally in the dark here.
I'm sure I could buy a brand new Godin 5th Avenue for $800-$900, or a D'Angellico EXL-1 reissue for $1500, or even step up into a solid carved Eastman and it would totally suit and likely exceed my abilities and needs. In fact, I suspect that most practical people would draw such a conclusion. However, I am a snobby guitar collector of the highest caliber lol. I absolutely love all guitars but I really enjoy hunting down and acquiring instruments that are special in my eyes. I now have the means to acquire something that I only ever dreamed about owning and I am doing my best to go about it the right way by arming myself with as much knowledge as possible so that I don't wind up with a huge disappointment.
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Yes I am aware that the ES stands for Electric Spanish. I probably should have been a little more precise with my vocabulary in previous posts. I have also read that significant changes to the bracing and top thickness were made when Gibson started mounting pickups directly to the top in the factory. Additionally I have read somewhere a while back that the modern acoustic reissue L5s are not exactly as historically accurate as people would like and that they don't quite sound the same. There is a lot going on here for me to absorb, but I'm trying lol. Originally Posted by nopedals
The L7, I will definitely check into it. I'm not really looking to cut the budget down. But perhaps this has its merits. For example I could consider a used WES to cover the electric end of the spectrum and if a vintage L7 didn't break the bank I could get one of those too and then have both bases covered. An interesting concept no doubt. Thank you for the recommendation.
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The cold hard truth. Maybe not the answer that I was hoping to get but I'm starting to think that this is the reality of it. I was really hoping I might get some responses saying that a given model with a particular date range in such and such condition and specs is worth X. But your comments about build volume, average demographic and real world use make a lot of since. They also really align with what I have been observing on my own just trying to watch the market over the past month or two. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Interesting point on the staple magnet P90s. I was under the impression that it was the other way around and that they are smoother/mellower. But I have never actually had a chance to try them. I have been interested ever since I first saw them in this Hillbilly Moon Explosion cover of How High The Moon. They don't show the guitar until about 1 minute in. But it looks like he is playing a mid 50s Les Paul Custom with these pickups. Super cool and a fantastic cover from a great band. That being said, Elederly Instruments in Lansing has a used 1956 LPC on consignment right now for $38,500. You wouldn't have to twist my arm to make the 2 hour drive just to try it our
Your point on the modern reissue L5 is well taken and I just keep flopping back and forth. Try to find a nice used one for $7000 ish is what I keep telling myself. But then I start looking around and I get all revved up about just going for it on a vintage instrument. I really love that 1955 at Rumble Seat but man that's a lot of money. Probably too much as we have already discussed. But I still have that urge to drive down there when I am ready and lay my hands on it. Who knows, I might just fall in love and start trying to negotiate.
Gibson Les Paul Custom (1956)
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
- I used to be really fixated on a neck. I have always preferred early 50s Telecaster baseball bat necks, mid-late 50s Les Pauls, Martin V etc. For many years I let a lot of great guitars pass me by strictly because they did not meet this requirement. In recent years I have tried to have a bit more of an open mind and have found that I am often able to acclimate to slimmer necks and various carves. That's not to say that any and everything is acceptable. I absolutely cannot get along with those super thing Ibanez wizard necks on their shred guitars. While I still do gravitate to the larger necks, I am open to trying out other stuff these days.
- The largest hollow body guitars that I have owned were a couple of Gretsch 6120s and a White Falcon also. I believe these are 16" guitars with a 3" ish depth and they all had a Bigsby so they were quite heavy. I never had an issue with the size. I have tried out a modern reissue 17" D'Angellico and last weekend I finally sat down with my first L5 CES WES. They are certainly large but manageable. However I have not had the opportunity to test drive an 18" yet. I'm sure it's a significant difference. Balance isn't really an issue for me. I'll never play it on stage and have to worry about holding it up for 2 hours at a gig. Without getting too personal, I'm a rather large guy and I always play while sitting and using a strap with the guitar at a steep angle similar to a classical position. It probably looks goofy but it works for me.
- Absolutely, I always check for the very same. Owning a Suhr has kind of spoiled me in this department. They consistently have the absolute best fret jobs that I have experienced.
- I'll admit, you got me here. I don't think I have ever even considered this while evaluating a guitar. I'm just not an advanced level musician. I know a few things and I mostly fool around with minor pentatonic way too much. I try to watch a few lessons online here and there and learn a new chord or two now and again. But I will absolutely try to keep this criteria in mind in the future.
As a result, I totally agree. No one is going to be able to tell me to buy a specific guitar. But I wasn't really looking for that kind of advice. At least I did not intend for this post to come across that way. I was looking to learn more about high end modern and vintage archtops from people that own them and maybe hear about some smaller boutique high end builders. When the time comes to purchase, I will put my hands on the guitar and make the decision myself. So I did not really feel that any of the above information was relevant to this discussion. However, I love to talk about guitars and you brought it up, so here you are.
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Vinny, Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
What an absolutely amazing collection. I believe that is a Wine Red WES I see in there? I really like that finish. I see there is one for sale on Reverb for $7800. Looks like a 1993. The owner says that it is mint condition. He uploaded some rather terrible photos which is a bit concerning. I would hope that someone selling such an instrument would take a little more pride and put some effort into the listing. This alone is somewhat of a red flag on his own evaluation of "mint". Personally I have not come across any 30 year old guitars that I would designate as mint condition. This one is certainly on my radar and I may reach out to him when I'm ready and ask for better photos. But California sure is a long ways away from Michigan and I hate to spend so much time and money for it to potentially not work out. So I'm really trying to hold out in hopes that something will turn up closer to me.
Gibson Master Model Custom L5 CES Wes Montgomery | Reverb
The Campellones that you guys are talking about have my attention as well. That tail piece is awesome looking for sure. I will definitely be looking more into this brand.
Oh and by the way. Feel free to post all the photos that you want!
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Can you elaborate please? I gather from your sale listing that Hutch is/was a Gibson Custom Shop archtop builder? I was under the impression that any guitars built by Jim Triggs in the late 80s - early 90s were rather highly regarded. Are these Hutch and Culbertson guitars even more so? Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Also one more question. I forgot to bring this up on my last post about the 1993 Wine Red Wes that I found on Reverb. It has a tan color oval The Gibson Master Model sticker inside the body. I don't recall seeing this on newer models. Can you guys tell me more about this?
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At least from my point of view I want to qualify my comment as it pertains to you. Because you are new to Archtops and have not owned or played many, I suggested that you stick with Gibson. Gibsons usually sound very good or better, they can be steller looking. They also hold their value. There are downsides to say L5 for example. My thought is it's a great start, and if you begin to hone in your playing requirements, and find that "for you" there is a better playing choice you can usually recoup your money. The same can not be said for too many others. It's not about flipping, it about owning lots and lots of guitars that I would swear I'd never sell that are all gone now! Originally Posted by Gold Finger
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Man you are preaching to the choir lol. "I'm keeping this one forever" is almost like a death sentence for anything that enters my collection. Originally Posted by skiboyny
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I am going to answer this question. In general Gibson got very good at quality control in about 1990 thru pretty much 2010. This has to do with archtops and after 2010 they made very few. Jim Hutchins was Gibson's best luthier and dedicated to especially archtop guitars. He died in believe in 2010. When he sighed the label in the guitar is pretty said that it passed his inspection and eye/ear for details being done correct. Just to elaborate, I personally believe this period of Gibson Guitars has been there best for overall QC. The early Gibson's of 40- 60 years before were done during an era when manufacturing was different for all things of almost any nature that was manufactured. The work ethic was great and in general things could be done wonderfully but not always. The prized Gibson's I like however are now only about 30 years old so they do not draw the same mindset of a Gibson that was made in 1933, 90 years ago. You cannot compare guitars 90 years old to any new guitar even if John D'angelico returned from the dead and built one new today. New guitars are new, not necessarily better or worse but being made of wood and played 90 years does things to a guitar. Originally Posted by Gold Finger
So these particular guitars that have the signed label seem to hold a better view. It is not mean they are all better or the others are inferior, but it works out to a market mindset of what is desirable. On a personal note I own 3 signed Hutch Gibson guitars. A 2005 Super400ces, 2002 Legrand, and 2003 L5c. What I can say about these guitar comes from experience. I spend many hours and time in the shop of Bill Barker and Bill Hollenbeck both know builders of archtop guitars. I have been around the shop the day the guitars they made were set up and played for the first time. I know what is required to have a well setup guitar and top-notch QC oversight. Many complaints are lodged against Gibson and QC issues. Some hate and others love. Well in my case these three Gibson I bought were spot on set up to the highest quality I seen by any guitar maker or manufacture period! The necks, action, wood, finish, details, and yes sound hit all the marks.
Take that for whatever it is worth but Gibson generally is tough to beat. Do my Gibson's sound better than my 1949 D'angelico New Yorker? No, because like I mentioned it happens to be 60 years older. Also that this level it was the player wants and likes in a guitar, not necessarily better or worse. To my ears the bass response and the warm projection of the D'a cannot be matched. However, and purely playing level the neck of the L5c feels better in my hand than the D'a, but it is not a detriment at all. The 49 played through the original Dearmond 1100...........well let's just say.............nothing topping that sound.
So that is my take on GIbson's custom signed labels. Probably others know much more or even disagree.
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