Gibson Super 400 1980 - buying advice

[tomassplatch]

Hello, I went to check this beauty in Luxembourg today: A Gibson Super 400 from 1980. The state is as you can see far from pristine: several dings on the front and back, some small cracks in the finish close to the pickup switcher, golden finish on pickups and tailpiece not in a very good shape, usual small cracks in the binding on the neck, frets a little wore down, but still have some life in them. The flightcase is also in a C- state: this guitar has some mileage, it was used in a classical rock band. Structurally, the guitar seems fine, the neck is straight, no cracks in the wood. The owner is asking 8000€, but is open to negociate.

What do you fellow European members think ?

[jazzshrink]

What do you fellow European members think?

Why are you limiting the discussion to European members? There's a lot of expertise on this board. Why not listen to all opinions?

[tomassplatch]

Why are you limiting the discussion to European members? There's a lot of expertise on this board. Why not listen to all opinions?

Sorry, of course, I was just referring to the fact that the prices are very different between US and Europe, but you are right, I am thankful for every help

Sorry for the wrong formulation... I changed the title of the thread to avoid the exclusionary impression.

[Archie]

Several Super 400's have recently sold here in the UK for around £8000, but where in very good condition.

If you go onto Ebay.co.uk and do a search for 'recently sold', you'll likely find them.

I know one that sold privately for £7k and was in near mint condition and a later 2000's model, which I think are a little more desirable. I'm welcome to be corrected and I'm sure some will differ in that opinion.

Continental Archtops usually sell for about £500-1k more than UK examples, across the board.

I'd say an early 80's continental S-400 in that condition, is likely worth €8k. if you can get it for €7K I'd go for it. Don't forget €7K is £6.2K and at that price, I'd buy it (if I wanted one). Get it landed for £6.5k all in and it's 'winner winner chicken dinner'.

[deacon Mark]

It does not look to be in too bad shape. Some wear but from the pics the back looks like nice figured and otherwise nice. The frets appear to be original the nubs are still present and most do no refret and keep the nubs. I would say the price is certainly in the ballpark. Cannot go by Reverb the idiots selling on Reverb have no intention of selling guitars like this based on nutty prices. To me the guitar is a bit overpriced for the states for sure but in Europe probably in line. If you like and it plays well then go. I happen to like the ones had after 1990 better and that is where I would be looking for a S400 from that era.

[TAA]

The S400 is one of my favorites! In 1967, when I ordered an L-5C, I was on the fence between it and the 400C (both unelectrified). Had a chance to play both side by side but concluded that the 400 body was just a bit too wide for me. Might not sound like it but the difference between an 18” and 17” wide bout can be subtly noticed but the ¾” longer body is less noticeable . They both have the same 25 ½” scale length. The headstock and fingerboard inlays are a lot like the Johnny Smith. For looks the 400 is amazing and difficult to beat.

Were it me, if I really like how it plays, I’d eventually look into getting the tailpiece and pickup covers replated. True, not original (assuming the existing items are original) but probably not every future buyer will be so focused that small detail.

I’m not knowledgeable enough on pricing differentials, so no comment there.

If you get it I hope you enjoy it!

Tom

[339 in june]

Not sure this kind of guitar is easy to sell in France nowadays.
According to the pics, the condition looks not that bad, it's a 43 y.o. guitar that has been played
You say the seller is open to negotiation
If you want this guitar, if it suits your playing, if you have the money and if it will inspire you, why not try an offer around 7k to start the discussion ?

Btw keep us informed and hopefully, post a NGD thread ;-)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It looks exactly like it’s description says it should. It’s been played, which is a very good thing as long as it’s not being sold because it needs something major to be playable again. The plating on tailpiece and pickups is actually in much better shape than most guitars played hard every day for even half its age. The gold on the pickup covers of the 345 I got used in late 1960 (when it was not even 3 years old) were half worn off (treble side, of course).

If it plays well, feels good, and sounds great, and it needs no major work), it’s a find for the right buyer. Given the fret wear described, it’ll need frets sooner rather than later if gigged regularly. But there aren’t many fine 40+ year old S400s at fair market prices anywhere. Mint ones are as scarce as they are expensive. If I wanted one for playing, I’d rather buy one like this and have a good luthier make it sound than turn a mint one (at far higher cost) into this one in not that many years,

[TAA]

Good summations in #7 & #8 above!

Two distinctions for me…

I am not a collector, today’s 1952 L-5C is my only guitar.

I no longer play out, so it would not get gigged endlessly, which why I suggested replating.

However, when I was active, sometimes 6-nights a week in the mid 60’s to mid 70’s, the plating on my ‘67 L-5C never looked as “used” as this example. Not a sound thing mind you, just an aesthetics observation.

Tom

[wintermoon]

I still don't know why everyone is in such a hurry to make vintage guitars w wear look like new again.
I wouldn't dream of replating gold parts, it's called mojo, someone loved that guitar, why wipe that all away?
Got a ding? Drop fill it, wear on the gold? Replate it. Back in the day most folks treated these as tools, now everyone wants a shiny new toy. Just get it set up well and play the darn thing iike it was meant to be.

[hotpepper01]

Why are you limiting the discussion to European members? There's a lot of expertise on this board. Why not listen to all opinions?

Good point. The world is bigger than indeed Europe only or USA only.

[gitman]

The guitar looks just fine - it was no safe queen and that's good in my view, it was played and surely works and sounds as expected. The price is also absolutely within the normal bracket so if you're serious about getting such a model and aware of the scarcity then go ahead and buy it. You'll get your investment back if you decide to flip it.

[ccroft]

I agree with others about condition and price. There's one in Toronto at a store that actually does sell guitars. It's 10 years older. Don't know about dings but the plating is way worst off. None on the bridge pickup. They're asking about 50% more for that one. I love the figure and finish on this one, and you have the good fortune to have actually played it. If you like it you should get it.

[Archie]

I’m not sure I agree with peoples appraisal on condition.

Have a look at the pic of the cutaway, pic 5.
that’s quite a bit of paint and finish missing. Certainly something you would quickly notice in person.

The next question is, do we often cite archtops with paint and finish on the top that has cracked and fallen off ‘in fair condition?

My position is that the condition is well used and somewhat cosmetically poor. Structurally it looks good but isn’t from the most desirable era. It should be a cheap example imo

As with France, I would never hold Canada as the ‘glass’s guide’ of guitar pricing. Too rich imo.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I’m not sure I agree with peoples appraisal on condition.

Have a look at the pic of the cutaway, pic 5.
that’s quite a bit of paint and finish missing. Certainly something you would quickly notice in person.

The next question is, do we often cite archtops with paint and finish on the top that has cracked and fallen off ‘in fair condition?

My position is that the condition is well used and somewhat cosmetically poor. Structurally it looks good but isn’t from the most desirable era. It should be a cheap example imo

As with France, I would never hold Canada as the ‘glass’s guide’ of guitar pricing. Too rich imo.

I think the key here is a thorough inspection. If that treble side upper bout finish damage is purely cosmetic (which I suspect it is), it's really not a big deal. I'm a bit concerned about the curvature of those finish cracks, but that's probably because of the undulations of the surface and not because there's any damage to the wood below it. A bore scope and/or inspection mirror and some time spent using them in skilled hands would help confirm that the guitar is structurally sound, which I suspect is the case.

I don't care what term is used to describe the "condition" of the instrument - fair, poor, etc are purely subjective. It's not mint and it's not a collector piece. All that matters for this one are playability, sound, structural integrity, and likely stability of the current condition. Market value varies with the market. Players value things that collectors and speculators ignore, and vice versa. Even if it's very sound and all the "problems" are purely cosmetic, this is not a guitar to buy with the intent to flip it untouched for a tidy profit. It's probably a great guitar for a player who wants to use it professionally, especially if it can be bought for a price that leaves room for a luthier to bring it up to its best playing condition (e.g. frets, stabilization of any structural damage etc) for a total cost of ownership that's no higher than its market value when finished.

I don't know how to define "cheap" as it relates to a guitar. I understand inexpensive. I understand overpriced, I understand "bargain". But I only know what cheap means when applied to a buyer or seller.

[wintermoon]

The binding in the cutaway shrunk and it chipped the lacquer in that area.
Keep in mind this is a players guitar, so it's going to have some cosmetic issues.
Can you find a collectors example in Europe for this $? Probably not the easiest task unless you're in the right place/right time.

[tomassplatch]

Thank you som much jazzshrink, ArchtopHeaven, deacon Mark, TAA, 339 in june, nevershouldhavesoldit, wintermoon, hotpepper01, gitman, ccroft for your reactions. It is extremely helpful.
Yeah, the guitar is not in a great condition, the main cosmetic fault seems to be th missing finish in the cutaway area, but I agree with ArchtopHeaven that the guitar is not in a great shape, somehow in person the flaws seem worse than on the photos. Here are some more, also from the inside (only with phone inserted). I don't have experience with Gibson archtops from this era, but the glue job seems a little sloppy at places (some glue traces not caught on the photos), also there seems to be some kind of a corrosion at one of the pots
You can also see it next to my L-5 Wes Montgomery, just for the pleasure of the eyes...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

And that’s the way to evaluate it! The electrics are easy to make whole. Originality is not a concern if the goal is a stable, solid player. I don’t have enough experience to know it that grotty kerfing is a problem or what caused the break.

[Archie]

I wouldn’t be concerned about sloppy glue. My Heritage Rose is one of the best sounding Archtops I have but if you looked inside it, you'd think it had been assembled by someone who’d never assembled a guitar in their life and had no interest in doing so.

[gitman]

The inside pics don't alarm me at all, the glue traces IMHO have nothing to do with the stability /integrity of the guitar. The rubbed-off finish on the neck OTOH tells me that this guitar was played extensively which is a GOOD sign.
I've played many Gibson (Norlin) guitars made in the 80's and while they were not always to my liking re certain specs (minor things, totally subjective) I do not remember a real lemon. I do remember one '69 ES-175 single pickup guitar that was quite dead .... The ES and LP models from that era tended to be a little heavy , as did the Fender guitars back then. I've also never handled a particularly lightweight Super-400 CES or L5CES for that matter - there is a LOT of solid wood in these guitars !
There is currently another Super-400 from 1980 for sale in Italy and the seller is asking € 12.000 - it looks to be in better cosmetic condition but is that worth 1/3rd more ?! For me it wouldn't be, that's for sure. The only 2 other Super-400 models I can find at the moment is one badly re-finished ‘68 acoustic version (asking price is € 8.000) and one '66 CES model with the sharp cutaway (and the narrow neck) , at € 22.000.00 - so I'd say that this particular 1980 model is priced quite attractively. For a player certainly worth a few sacrifices !

[TAA]

I might have mis-spoke when suggesting replating. I would not be in a hurry to do that but would consider doing it.

There is no problem with some of us wanting a shiny new toy but minor cosmetic efforts would not result in this S400 being a “new” toy. It’s still old! It might be new to the next owner but that is maybe a different use if the word new.

This only reinforces the old saying that says “we are all different”. Would be a really dull place if we were all the same.

Tom

[Dennis D]

The inside pics don't alarm me at all, the glue traces IMHO have nothing to do with the stability /integrity of the guitar. The rubbed-off finish on the neck OTOH tells me that this guitar was played extensively which is a GOOD sign.
I've played many Gibson (Norlin) guitars made in the 80's and while they were not always to my liking re certain specs (minor things, totally subjective) I do not remember a real lemon. I do remember one '69 ES-175 single pickup guitar that was quite dead .... The ES and LP models from that era tended to be a little heavy , as did the Fender guitars back then. I've also never handled a particularly lightweight Super-400 CES or L5CES for that matter - there is a LOT of solid wood in these guitars !
There is currently another Super-400 from 1980 for sale in Italy and the seller is asking € 12.000 - it looks to be in better cosmetic condition but is that worth 1/3rd more ?! For me it wouldn't be, that's for sure. The only 2 other Super-400 models I can find at the moment is one badly re-finished ‘68 acoustic version (asking price is € 8.000) and one '66 CES model with the sharp cutaway (and the narrow neck) , at € 22.000.00 - so I'd say that this particular 1980 model is priced quite attractively. For a player certainly worth a few sacrifices !

I am really glad someone mentioned weight ! The next oft-times overlooked category for me is size. So fwiw this is a large, heavy instrument, which will not get any smaller or lose any weight over time. That is probably a whole 'nother thread but man I'd be all over this or maybe an L-5 in my long-gone younger days, but these days, putting in an extended practice session with a guitar this heavy ( 9 lbs ? ) would be a no-go for me.
As far as this instrument, price, condition etc, I was surprised at the frets - meaning I thought they'd be down more. But for sure that guitar needs a thorough going over - clean and polish, ' spit shine ', etc etc. Maybe a suggestion would be to offer 7000 eu - - cash - in hand. And down the road a bit I wouldn't plan on flipping it in a hurry without taking a hit - the ' players grade 'condition will always be an issue.

MHO of course.

Good luck !

[Archie]

I am really glad someone mentioned weight ! The next oft-times overlooked category for me is size. So fwiw this is a large, heavy instrument, which will not get any smaller or lose any weight over time. That is probably a whole 'nother thread but man I'd be all over this or maybe an L-5 in my long-gone younger days, but these days, putting in an extended practice session with a guitar this heavy ( 9 lbs ? ) would be a no-go for me.
As far as this instrument, price, condition etc, I was surprised at the frets - meaning I thought they'd be down more. But for sure that guitar needs a thorough going over - clean and polish, ' spit shine ', etc etc. Maybe a suggestion would be to offer 7000 eu - - cash - in hand. And down the road a bit I wouldn't plan on flipping it in a hurry without taking a hit - the ' players grade 'condition will always be an issue.

MHO of course.

Good luck !

Always buy the best examples. You'll never have any trouble selling them but you have to be careful playing them lol

[rpjazzguitar]

I have heard that players who try the Super 400 tend to move on to a different model more often than for other archtops. I don't know if it's true. So, my only comment is to make sure you really are going to bond with this model. As someone else pointed out, it's big and it's heavy. The weight wouldn't bother me, I don't think, but the size might.

One of my teachers, iirc, thought the S400 didn't respond to the pick attack quite as quickly as an L-5. I couldn't hear that, but he said he could.

Of course, plenty of great players have loved them.

[wintermoon]

I dig all the wear on the back of the neck, my old L5 looks like that except the wear extends even further up and down the neck a sign of a guitar not just played in cowboy chord position but by someone that could play.