Acoustic Archtop Tone

[AKA]

Someone recently posted a demonstration of two Mirabella acoustic archtops. Though it’s distinct from the classic amplified jazz tone, I dig the acoustic richness of these instruments.

The Monteleone Four Seasons archtops are serious examples of modern acoustic archtop construction.
Below is a 15” Wilkie archtop played by Maxim Comier. Any other examples you’d care to post?

Maxim Cormier playing his original composition Landlock.

AKA

[gitman]

In the example below another very able player is demonstrating a similar high-end archtop - I find the tone impressive but not inspiring or inviting and the way he plays, the sound he gets is really not my cup of tea.

[himself]

I'm surprised I do not like Trenier very much here, but two first videos are amazing!

[ThatRhythmMan]

How about a Trenier in the hands of Pasquale Grasso. I think this guitar gets a far better demo of its capabilities than the other.

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[himself]

This is heavenly
I of course know Pasquale (and this demo too). This is a different guitar, by the way, but the recording chain definitely changes the result.

[Rob MacKillop]

I can't compete with those guys, but this guitar only cost me £1400 at the time - why on Earth did I sell it!

With a plectrum:

Without a plectrum (turn the volume up)

And then there's the Excalibur from Franz Elferink (the reason I sold the D'Aquisto New Yorker - but I wish I'd kept both)

[gitman]

One aspect that I also find distracting in this example (Trenier ) is the pick-attack that is heard with each note. It takes an enormous effort and patience to develop the precision in the right hand to minimize this and the same is true re the left hand and the noise the fingertips make when sliding on the wound strings. An acoustic archtop guitar amplifies these and fresh strings even more so. I find it very distracting but that's just me. The tone of an amplified archtop with a magnetic pickup is wonderful but when it comes to the sound of an acoustic guitar IMHO nothing can beat a fine classical (nylonstring) guitar played by an experienced musician/ player.
The crux with acoustic archtops in my opinion and judging from my observations and experiences after some 40+ years is this : the design does not really lend itself for fingerstyle playing as the top is not as responsive to a light(er) touch like in a good steelstring and certainly not when compared to a fine(er) classical guitar. It takes much more energy to excite the top, the steel strings produce a more strident tone and the relatively short sustain does not support longer notes, but rather invites players to play MORE notes ...
This observation is largely based on the comparison between the 3 major types of acoustic guitars (flattop/steelstring, archtop + classical nylonstring), leaving the resonator guitar out .

Of course there are exceptions to the rule but in general this is what I have learned over all these years. The most modern /avantgarde specimen by builders that came after the late J. D'Aquisto like Ken Parker, Ribekke, Manzer, Koentop and a handful more (who are NOT primarily focused on the established designs) are much more responsive guitars than the traditional models but since the basic construction principles still apply the progress towards a really balanced, warm, responsive and versatile archtop has been slow ... It also seems to me that in classical guitar design more progress has been made in the past 30 years as far as sheer volume, playability, balance of tone and responsiveness /dynamic range is concerned - surely the market for classical guitars worldwide is quite a bit larger and therefor the drive for innovation is that much stronger. VERY slowly some sort of cross-fertilisation is taking place : one of Stephen Andersen's last projects before his retirement was an archtop that featured a sandwiched top , an idea long established with classical guitars, just as the extra soundholes in the sides and so on.

A regular round-table discussion with some of the established luthiers (from both camps, classical and archtop construction) on the one side and likewise experienced players on the other would be really interesting and surely helpful to get things moving along at a little faster pace - there certainly is no lack of great talent, ambition and innovative energy out there. We as players and clients are also responsible for pushing the envelope and should focus more on the future, not being hung up with the past most of the time....

Rob, you are such a fine player with a great touch, you make beautiful sounds with any guitar - BUT the Elferink just proves my point re strident tones, finger-noise and - to my ears - an un-inviting/enticing tone. These Villa-Lobos Etudes played on a classical guitar will bewitch any listener !

[gitman]

Truly an exception to the rule : a D'Aquisto in the hands of a MASTER ...

[himself]

Nice stuff here!
I think this channel should be here

[gitman]

Oh, he is certainly a connaisseur of fine /vintage archtops and a really fine player BUT he practically never strums them with a positive attack, plays at conversation-level only so IMHO the true character of the many many guitars he has shown in as many clips does not really come across - most often they sound the same, almost. (HERE the difference is audible, yes). Maybe not when in the room with him but not in the audio of the clips. This is a general problem with most clips : recorded with mediocre microphones placed too far away the lower frequencies are simply not picked up and it all is compounded by the mostly in-adequate speakers the majority of listeners have in front of them.

[Cunamara]

I am always interested in this, because the natural voice of the archtop guitar is bright and cutting, with relatively little bass information and strong mids and uppers. It is intended to replace the banjo, after all, in big bands which generally have a loud and bright mix.

On the other hand, the amplified sound that we want from the archtop guitar is often dark, mellow, bassy (think Jim Hall). This is the opposite of the natural sound of the instrument, which makes me wonder why the archtop guitar remains the standard for playing electric guitar and jazz. It's actually not really suited for that tone. I think it is more the look of the thing and tradition than any practical utility.

The sound most of us seem to want from an electric archtop guitar is closer to the classical guitar than it is to the acoustic archtop guitar. I have largely given up on attempting to get that sound out of an arch top guitar, and instead have moved towards using solidbodies, which are actually much easier to shape the tone. Playing jazz acoustically, I much prefer the sound of my flattop guitar than I do the sound of archtop guitars. I am not playing in a big band, I use hybrid picking for which, as it has been noted above, archtop guitars really don't sound that good.

[AKA]

Yes!

Truly an exception to the rule : a D'Aquisto in the hands of a MASTER ...

[jorgemg1984]

I have to say I agree with Gitman - the fascination with archtops as an acoustic instrument is something I quite never understood. I would take any good classical or folk guitar over an archtop, for acoustic performance. I very much enjoy the electric fat tone an L5 can bring or the subtle acoustic presence you can get from a good archtop and a PAF, like Bernstein's Zeider. But the mic in front of an archtop sound does not move me.

There are exceptions, of course - Martin Taylor sounds beautiful on the clip above and the vintage acoustic D'Angelico I tried one also sounded incredible, but in general archtop sound mid-heavy and harsh to me. They were probably made to cut trough not to sound good, back in the day, before amps.

[AKA]

Perhaps the early archtops, designed to replace the banjo in big bands, are a different instrument from the full-toned instruments modern luthiers are building (ie. the D’Aquisto example above). I love the full, rich tone of an expertly voiced modern acoustic archtop in an intimate setting, or recorded properly.

I am always interested in this, because the natural voice of the archtop guitar is bright and cutting, with relatively little bass information and strong mids and uppers. It is intended to replace the banjo, after all, in big bands which generally have a loud and bright mix.

On the other hand, the amplified sound that we want from the archtop guitar is often dark, mellow, bassy (think Jim Hall). This is the opposite of the natural sound of the instrument, which makes me wonder why the archtop guitar remains the standard for playing electric guitar and jazz. It's actually not really suited for that tone. I think it is more the look of the thing and tradition than any practical utility.

The sound most of us seem to want from an electric archtop guitar is closer to the classical guitar than it is to the acoustic archtop guitar. I have largely given up on attempting to get that sound out of an arch top guitar, and instead have moved towards using solidbodies, which are actually much easier to shape the tone. Playing jazz acoustically, I much prefer the sound of my flattop guitar than I do the sound of archtop guitars. I am not playing in a big band, I use hybrid picking for which, as it has been noted above, archtop guitars really don't sound that good.

[deacon Mark]

Interesting discussion and shows we like different things. I do not like the sound of most flattop guitars. They just do not dig in at any level for me with either a pick or the fingers. Nylon string classic guitars are another whole ball game and not useful to compare at least on what the guitars are designed to sound like and do. I would agree that in general acoustic archtops are made primarily to be used with a pick and fingerstyle just does not allow the volume, but I find that same problem with flattops because they don't cut enough.

The Trenier 18 guitar in the clip above I do not like at all, and it could just be the playing. I find it irritating and to me has nothing to do with smooth and round sounds. Pasquale sounds way better but again I think the sound is not as rich with the round hole. It is one direction right at the front. To me the Trenier 18 the player is playing way to close to the bridge and picking up a harsh treble. My guess is that guitar is not made for what the fellow is doing in the clip but who really knows till we sit down and play them ourselves.

There are some tapes and recordings Johnny Smith did only acoustic with his D'angelico do at home. I have a few cuts and wow are they nice. He plays the entire guitar top to bottom mostly with a pick. It is an intimate sound that in the right room is beautiful. I have to try and dig up the recordings.

[AKA]

I agree. This clip is not an impressive example of the acoustic archtop tone I favor. Seems as though the instrument was not setup properly; the notes were not pure. Some seemed a bit buzzy.

In the example below another very able player is demonstrating a similar high-end archtop - I find the tone impressive but not inspiring or inviting and the way he plays, the sound he gets is really not my cup of tea.

[AKA]

…. There are some tapes and recordings Johnny Smith did only acoustic with his D'angelico do at home. I have a few cuts and wow are they nice. He plays the entire guitar top to bottom mostly with a pick. It is an intimate sound that in the right room is beautiful. I have to try and dig up the recordings.

I hope you find them! I look forward to hearing them.

[AKA]

I love your tone here! You’re right - why on earth did you sell it? ?

I can't compete with those guys, but this guitar only cost me £1400 at the time - why on Earth did I sell it!

With a plectrum:

[ThatRhythmMan]

Interesting discussion and shows we like different things. I do not like the sound of most flattop guitars. They just do not dig in at any level for me with either a pick or the fingers. Nylon string classic guitars are another whole ball game and not useful to compare at least on what the guitars are designed to sound like and do. I would agree that in general acoustic archtops are made primarily to be used with a pick and fingerstyle just does not allow the volume, but I find that same problem with flattops because they don't cut enough.

The Trenier 18 guitar in the clip above I do not like at all, and it could just be the playing. I find it irritating and to me has nothing to do with smooth and round sounds. Pasquale sounds way better but again I think the sound is not as rich with the round hole. It is one direction right at the front. To me the Trenier 18 the player is playing way to close to the bridge and picking up a harsh treble. My guess is that guitar is not made for what the fellow is doing in the clip but who really knows till we sit down and play them ourselves.

There are some tapes and recordings Johnny Smith did only acoustic with his D'angelico do at home. I have a few cuts and wow are they nice. He plays the entire guitar top to bottom mostly with a pick. It is an intimate sound that in the right room is beautiful. I have to try and dig up the recordings.

I agree with your assessment of the Trenier 18 clip. The player is also using an angular pick attack that adds to the harshness of tone. I think that guitar would sound drastically different if played differently.

Those who have some familiarity with me know that I’m kind of an acoustic archtop freak. Like many other instruments it’s not fair to make generalizations about acoustic archtop guitars. The capabilities of individual guitars can be drastically different. Some are great at good old 4 to the bar comping, but not much else. Some are just dead at everything. Others have a massive dynamic range, capable of remarkable subtleties. One may have a fast decay while another may have singing sustain.

Lumping archtop acoustic guitars would be no different than lumping all flattop steel string guitars together. A 1940 Martin dreadnought is nothing like a Gibson SJ-200 or any Larson Brothers made guitar.


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[Stringswinger]

In my view nothing touches the tone of a great classical guitar played fingerstyle except for a truly great acoustic archtop played with a plectrum. Playing a vintage D'Angelico strung with 80/20 strings with a heavy plectrum is an inspiring experience.

And I prefer Rob's playing in the videos shared above. He plays with feeling and uses dynamics to support the music. The other cats are putting in too much effort to impress rather than simply playing beautiful music. But I way prefer Kenny Burrell to Pasquale Grasso. YMMV.

[AKA]

Another example of the acoustic archtop tone I favor. These are “young” instruments, and sound a little tight. They should open up with playing and age.

I must admit, though, towards the end (17:20) when he played the instrument with the pickup I appreciated that classic warm archtop jazz guitar tone.

[Gilpy]

This is my Rancourt 15" archtop (not me playing it!) It's strictly an acoustic instrument.

By far, the nicest sounding archtop I've played. It is somewhat non-traditional in materials and construction: Cedar top, Peruvian walnut back and sides, top braces carved from the top plates, side sound port.

It's my favorite guitar, good for any style of music.

[QAman]

Here is an example of Pasquale doing some Masterclass teaching on an 18” Trenier.

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[ThatRhythmMan]

This is my Rancourt 15" archtop (not me playing it!) It's strictly an acoustic instrument.

By far, the nicest sounding archtop I've played. It is somewhat non-traditional in materials and construction: Cedar top, Peruvian walnut back and sides, top braces carved from the top plates, side sound port.

It's my favorite guitar, good for any style of music.

Guillaume is doing some fantastic work!


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[deacon Mark]

Here is an example of Pasquale doing some master class teaching on an 18” Trenier.

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The guy is a monster and has his own sound and technique. Never heard anyone sound quite like him which is what makes a player great............they have their own sound. To me he has the guitar covered in the way a piano player can use 10 fingers and 88 keys. Just watching him play is like seeing precision movements that he makes look easy and relaxed. I wonder how much he practices and did when he was younger/ In the end though I believe it is a gift one could practice and play forever and never achieve his level of playing.