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A friend has an option on an early 60's L5-CES and observed an obviously older crack in the top that is mostly hidden by the tailpiece. It extends to the rear pickup cavity and goes all the way through.
I have read in the past that a re-finish or a repaired headstock crack usually reduces the value of such a guitar round about 40-50 % - I have no idea what this crack would normally shave off the market value.
If anyone of you could give me some figures and share their experiences it would be very much appreciated !
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09-25-2023 04:41 PM
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maybe about 10-20% depending on how nasty it is. headstock breaks and refins are usually the issues that reduce value significantly
is it a center seam sep or just a regular off center crack?
a pic would help
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Has it been cleated? By a good luthier? Is the split open now? Has it been spliced?
Before I go into whether I feel it's worth the purchase, these answers are good to know. Answers range from "Pass it up and don't look back" to "It'll be fine. Go for a deal".
Let's find out what you're working with. Photos from outside AND inside please.
Also, is he looking for a working guitar? What's so attractive about THIS particular guitar? If it's an open seam and it' hasn't been addressed before, why not? How long ago has the split been there?
A little more info please.
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Here are 2 photos :
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that's about as minor as they come and appears to not even extend past the crossbar, so maybe 10% off, if that imo
many dealers would likely not discount it at all considering the age and rarity of a guitar like that.
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That doesn't look bad at all. Can you find out if it's been cleated? And if where this guitar is located? And this is a recent photo? The reason I ask these ostensibly superfluous questions is I'd want to know the guitar is as stable as it can be if I'm the owner. A crack like that looks fine in the summer, it looks fine in Florida, it looks fine in a temp/humidity controlled environment but you have to take into account seasonal and environmental changes that will bring about changes that can open up something like that.
Everybody knows about cracks that occur, or appear in the winter when the air is dry and the heat is on. That can make a simple split open up more if it's not cleated and as I prefer to care for an instrument, treated with some kind of sealing coat to protect the exposed grain along the split. Sometimes if the split is fresh, I'll find a little glue worked into the breach, cleated and water thin wash coat during the humid season will not only assure the stability of the instrument, but make the split almost invisible.
Any time you have something come apart in a way that was never intended, it's always a good idea to respect the wood and do anything you can to protect it from getting worse. Winter makes splits worse; it's when cracks appear and grow. Just treat your guitar with love and respect.
Just my opinion.
Good luck with the purchase.
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Am I naive in thinking that since a brace is thankfully resting right below it that it is not a major structural big issue? I would get it sealed somehow and carry on.
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It appears that you are talking about an early '60's L5CES, in blonde, a very rare guitar. The crack looks very minor and easily cleated if it's not already.
Of more interest to me would be if the pickups are original. An early '60's blondes L5 CES with original pickups- that's a grail guitar where I come from! I don't think most dealers would discount much on a guitar like that with this issue. Unless it is somehow much worse than it looks.
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Buy it!
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My guitar tech cleated a crack many years ago and it's been fine ever since. No opening at all.
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Done properly, it's a repair that's good for the life of your guitar. Cleats are used on the most famous and heavily used violins and cellos in the classical world and they are permanent. Done well with graduated diamond cleats, you can essentially say there's no effect on the sound.
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
But if it's a split and it is not addressed, it will effect the sound, especially in the winter when it opens up and two halves vibrate as two surfaces.
A split is not something that will doom a guitar. Unless you're in the collecting world.
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The split does not look so much like a crack but a center seam separation. There is brace it looks like under pickup cavity. The area is easy to get a good solid cleat glued in due to the pickup cavity. If I bought this guitar, I would immediately put a nice cleat in even if it had one already. I would try and pull the crack together so that it does not show at all. The fact that is shows up leads me to believe a cleat has not been put in. Applying light pressure across with top of the guitar with a long Jorgensen clamp, might allow it to come together and then a nice solid cleat. In fact, since it is a ces style guitar the less worry about interrupting the top from vibrating as on a fully acoustic. So I would error on the conservative side and put a nice long cleat of spruce along the crack with the grain crossing perpendicular to the top. This would I think completely assure a solid repair that would enhance the guitar overall.
Once on a J185 Gibson Flat top it has a similar crack going from bridge to end of large bout at the of guitar. Given it was an acoustic guitar but delicate I opted to do the same type of repair. I light applied pressure and made a nice long 4 inch cleat the follow the crack but made it wider than normal about 1/2 inch wide. I then did the perpendicular grain and glued. The result was the guitar sound much better. It clearly had more power and a bit brighter too. The owner could tell immediately. I am not sure but I believe it was because it allow the top the vibrate as normal and not be changed by the crack causing a different stress pattern.
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I may well be wrong, but it looks to me like the center seam is well away from that defect. The crack looks to me not to be in the center - it's closer to the bass side than the treble by a good bit. The grain patterns and location both suggest to me that the seam is above the crack in the picture -
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Yes, spot on nevershouldhave................but it would not change the way I suggest doing the repair. In fact makes it easier to know where it originates and how far it travels. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I may well be wrong, but it looks to me like the center seam is well away from that defect. The crack looks to me not to be in the center - it's closer to the bass side than the treble by a good bit. The grain patterns and location both suggest to me that the seam is above the crack in the picture -
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If that's a crack, I suspect it's from dehydration rather than from physical trauma. If so, simply clamping it shut and cleating it will put the top under more tension than it should carry because the space being closed used to be wood. And if the entire guitar is a bit dry, squeezing the space shut and holding it closed with glue and cleats could eventually lead to another separation somewhere else. Either the top will crack elsewhere or it will start to pull in from the binding.
A blond early '60s L-5 CES is a true jewel. It deserves a thorough evaluation and proper repair. Before I'd simply squeeze and cleat that crack, I'd check the guitar's wood with a moisture meter. If I understand what I've read over the years correctly, the moisture content of the wood should be somewhere between 6 and 9% - the 9% figure is for wood that's kept stable at about 70 degrees F and 45 to 50% RH. If the wood is dry, the guitar needs to be rehydrated slowly until that crack closes. If the crack is from dehydration and it's closed by rehydrating, there will be no more tension in the top when cleated than there was when it was made. But it will then have to be kept in a properly humidified environment or it will eventually crack again somewhere else.
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The guitar will be scrutinized by an experienced repairman/luthier and he'll know what to do in a few weeks. De-Hydration can be pretty much ruled out since this guitar lived in central Europe for the past 5 years, with a musician who knows how to control humidity. The winter over here never gets as dry as in the central US and neither do we have the extreme humidity in the summer. My guess is that the guitar got a slight knock on the bridge at one point and it went un-noticed until recently. Shit happens .....
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gitman, I wouldn't put it that far. That may be a seam separation, very localized. Nevershouldhavesoldit, good eye on the non median location! Even as a grain split, it looks clean. It can happen when an instument ages and the glue seam or grain annular ring may have expanded or dried. Not common but I've seen it plenty in my day, even in instruments meticulously taken care of. An archtop begins its top plate as two wedges, up to an inch thick, glued together along the peak of the bookmatched wedge. Then all material that is NOT the top is carefully and massively removed, sculpted into one top plate, that plate can be carved down to a few mms supporting 100+lbs downforce. That's one solid strip of glued wood reduced to two halves and a few mm's of glue line. Pretty miraculous, eh? Originally Posted by gitman
Wood ages. Glue ages. Time changes things. A tree gets brittle. A house gets creaky. A fine cabinet changes. A door loses plumb. A guitar gets more mellow. Sometimes seams do separate; without trauma.
Your luthier will know and treat it. Cleat or cross grain patch is perfect. Excellent suggestions given in this thread. I might gently suggest that your luthier look very closely at the bookmatch location on the other side of the median line, just to check and see if there are any corrosponding invisible signs of wood checking that may evidence in the future. Sometimes wood flaws cannot be seen at the time a billet of wood is chosen. A check can take years to evidence. If this is a check break, it may have a twin on the other side of the bookmatch. Unlikely, but worth a check on the bench.
Of note, that lacquer crack will be the most visible after the work has been done. I've used lacquer retarder to amalgamate small finish breaches; lacquer, unlike poly, will re-set with the correct agents. Clients have been surprized at how invisible a lacquer check can be treated, and your guitar can be easily made absolutely and permanently stable if it's not already.
Rest and be assured, you and your guitar are set to be lifetime companions. Play it lovingly!
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ICBW, but I think it's a burst. I seem to see a dark border toward the tail. OP should tell us.
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Looking at that crackled lacquer finish, let me tell what I once did to a 1940s Levin guitar with a similar finish. Sheer ingnorance about what's holy, and the crime has expired long ago.
Drawing on my early years in aeromodelling (my Mom always said I had used so much nitro dope it went into my brain), I brushed the guitar with thinner with about 15% dope in it. The brush was the finest squirrel hair available. The result? All cracks disappeared. Superb finish, still looking old. I sold the guitar to a dealer for roughly what I had paid for, only to discover that, a week later, the price had doubled on the other side of the town.
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I found this rarity,
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