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I played guitar growing up through college and have since not picked it up in 17 years. I play piano. I've become obsessed with jazz guitar and am buying either an SA2200 or AS2000 to start taking lessons and get good a playing. I'm a competent musician (piano) and really committed, looking forward. However, I need your help...
Ready to buy but need help pulling the trigger. I've reserched to the nth degree the mechanical differences between the two guitars. Scale length, pickups, coil split capabilities, fretboard and necks, bodies and woods, etc. I know those details. I've also watched many, many videos of both guitars for jazz tones on youtube, of which there are far more for the Ibanez than the Yamaha. Looking at the two guitars on paper, the Yamaha looks better. But listening to youtube, and of course the ibanez jazz endorsement from the many many greats - the ibanez seems to be the right pick. But, I also will say i've found way more videos for the ibanez to get a sense for the tone than for the yamaha.
Whare are your thoughts and does one stand way out than the other for a jazz guitarist looking to buy and learn the discipline?
One thing i'll note is that the Anico V pickups in the Yamaha seem like they're less of a match for the darker jazz tones - is this true or am I interpreting that incorrectly? I also listen to a lot of Phish and appreciate Trey Anastasio's tone (different guitar all together I know) but he does play SD Anico V pickups so was thinking perhaps that may play a part.
Please offer all your advice and experience - particularlly interested in strong cases for the yamaha but also wanna know if the ibanze is clearly a better fit. Help please, wanna buy this week. Thanks.
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10-02-2023 10:34 PM
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Two fine guitars to choose from. Whichever you'll end up with, will please you. Yamaha's PUs are hotter than Ibanez Super 58s. Driving the neck PU to the bottom of the pit will help. OTOH, Yamaha's coil split calls for a hotter PU for the single-coil mode to be of any use.
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I'm a huge Ibanez fan but never bonded with their AS models. They seem so tight and lifeless to me.
I did own a Yamaha SA2200 briefly.
The truth is I'm not a semi hollow guy but I was incredibly impressed with the Yamy. The finish, although relatively thick, is stunning with the brown burst (or whatever they call it). A real testament to unbeatable guitar production.
I would go for the Yam but you should go with the one that feels right. You can change pickups but you can't change a neck profile etc...
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I owned a Yamaha SA2200 for many years, although I never warmed to it. To me, it was heavy and particulalry neck heavy. I did swap out the pickups for a Benedetto B6 and I thought that helped a great deal. I know there is a lot of love for this guitar, certainly at this price point, but too heavy for me.
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You can't lose with either of those quality choices, provided you play them first. I own an AS200 and have played a variety of Yamaha's - they're equal in my estimation. Play them both, buy the one you like the best or the one that makes the most economic sense. There's no screwing up in your situation.
Buying a guitar is not marriage, they're easy to swap out.
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I’ve played both, and would personally opt for the Ibanez 2000. The Yamaha had some dead spots on the neck around the higher positions on the lower strings, whereas the Ibanez was just singing all over. The Yamaha felt more at home with regular Blues playing than jazz, the Ibanez the opposite. Those are just my overall general feelings, but both are good guitars.
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I went with the Yammy SA2200. I'm tall, big hands, and really liked the wider neck. Also like that it is solid Mahogany, keeping it set up regularly obviously being important since its not bonded, the thought of glue in the neck just rubs me the wrong way. It can't be as vibrationally efficient. Plus being able to split both coils, why not. Yamaha has to work harder to get buyers at that price point than Ibanez does, that just seems inferred. Plus, financially speaking - Yammy has been a well run company for way longer than ibanez has been around, and ibanez has bankrupt, many times. Gut feelings with lots of opinion here but Yamaha just felt right to me.
Now i just have to learn to play it..... Let's see if I can figure that part out after pretty much 18 years of NOT playing the guitar, at all. It's like I'm starting over. I'm sure I'll be back with plenty of annoying questions about the real book and what to practice.
Also just like the idea of it not being an Ibanez like every single aspiring jazz guitarist ive ever met in NYC has or goes and buys. That cheapens the appeal of the ibanez a little bit to me.
Thanks everyone for the kind remarks.
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My advice is a buy a used Eastman T386 or similar model. Save the money and get a real nitro finish as well! They have a bit wider neck shape.
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ROAR! CRASH! BOOOM!
Originally Posted by NYC
OMG! What was that?
The collective anguished moan of the owners of multipiece necks the world over and the impact of the simultaneous defenestration of 10,000 L5's
Ibanez (Hoshino) has never gone bankrupt, and guitars are a tiny portion of the Yamaha empire. Originally Posted by NYC
And if you can't trust your gut, who's gut can you trust? Originally Posted by NYC
Interesting ... I don't encounter nearly as many Ibanezes in the wild in NYC as Eastmans, Gibsons, and Telecasters. Originally Posted by NYC
Quick! Trade in your Yamaha because your gut feelings are all based on false premises! OMG! DO IT NOW BEFORE IT EXPLODES! Originally Posted by NYC
Oops, it looks like I misspelled "Congratulations on your new guitar". Damn autocorrect ...
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I didn’t hear it anywhere. It is the story of the Hoshino Gakki company - just read it. Ibanez was the label they used to copy American guitars - they established US HQ in Pennsylvania in the early 70s through Elger Guitars who at that time quit manufacturing their own guitars and became the US distributor of Ibanez. They made too much noise and Gibson sued Ibanez for ripping off their designs. It settled out of court. Ibanez was just the label used for Hoshino’s guitars that were sold outside of Japan - hoshino was a smallish pvt owned musical instrument company - Ibanez is their label. They outsourced and still do, all manufacturing - to fujigen until 82 and then to Korea through late 80s and then gave the contract back to fujigen. Hoshino then had to go and spend a ton of money to design and manufacture the Ibanez guitars we know outside the AS series because of the terms in the settlement. Yamaha and and the other firms doing the same thing didn’t take on any of the burden of that - Gibson couldn’t sue Yamaha - it’s too big of a company with too much cash.
I’m just telling the story here not giving opinions. Margins are smaller at Hoshino (Ibanez) than at a Yamaha. Always have been always will, this is basic i mean come on- I didn’t hear this anywhere. I read about the companies and financials for Yamaha are public just look it up. You can see the capital they have on the balance sheet that goes to the musical instruments business. They own their manufacturing - don’t outsource. Ibanez had to market and create the buzz we all know about and associate with them to sell products. Yamaha doesn’t - so they never did.
I don’t know why this would offend anyone haha. I mean they’re fine guitars. I’m just talking about the firms who make them, how they go about doing it and the stories associated over the timeline of the last 60-70 years.
Read about the companies, look at Yamaha’s public balance sheet and you’ll see that there are no accts payable to a third party manufacturer - the money stays on the balance sheet becuae they manufacture in their facilities - becuse they have the capital from the many other profitable divisions of Yamaha to invest and have higher margins later from owning those processes.
come on, lol I mean this is just the info.
this is how made my decision and I appreciated your advise as well. It was informative.
also, look where Yamaha is buying materials from - also public. Look where Hoshino (Ibanez) is buying from - well you can’t because they’re privately owned and they’re not buying any - they’re designing it and then paying fugijen to do it for them - then turning around and selling it. No control over how fujigen May cut corners to increase their own margins and not care becuaee the product is not theirs anyways - it’s an Ibanez!
just think about it
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“Ibanez” has bankrupt, yes absolutely. The firm “Ibanez” is a legal entity that is a pass through company to sell guitars manufactured by the three companies you mentioned who sell their products to Hoshino, who then stamps the name Ibanez on it so they can sell it in counties outside of Hoshino’s domestic Japan.
“Ibanez” Carries no cost of goods sold, no capital, no anything other than costs of goods and wares which is its inventory. When they were sued, they bankrupt becuae they have no capital to settle the suit. Hoshino, had to sell equity in its company to produce cash to then move to the Ibanez balance sheet where it was then given to Gibson (bankruptcy number one). Look at Yamaha’s financials that year, look at the contractor they lent several million dollars to, Hoshino.
that’s pretty funny actually. Poor guys
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Blue note- haha aw no wad here man. You asked and I told ya. Thanks again for the advice. Looking forward!
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First you come in here asking for advice on a guitar choice, then you make your decision almost before anyone has time to weigh in on it, and then you bash Ibanez after what appears to be a forensic deep dive into their balance sheet. Interesting approach to buying a guitar!
In my mind, having never heard any of this, I still believe that I would base my decision on feel, tone etc. Yes the company's reputation matters, but nothing you have written about Ibanez would scare me off the company, they have been in business for many years even if they were sued by Gibson- heck, Gibson sues everybody!.
Quite the opposite- the fact that Ibanez is a smaller company than Yamaha would make me feel like they are possibly more focused on the quality of their offerings- after all, they don't sell cars, jet skis and boat motors! So they are potentially more focused on the musical instrument. When Gibson and Fender were parts of big conglomerates, their products went downhill- way downhill, so much so that it took decades for them to claw back their reputations.
Not implying in any way that the Yamaha isn't a great guitar, I have always heard good things about their thin lines, and I hope you are happy with it and make some great music on it!
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This discussion took a turn I have never seen in the forum before. I have to admit, I have never purchased a guitar based on looking at the public financials of the manufacturer. I prefer to choose my guitars based on how they feel and sound and, to some extent, how they look.
Ibanez makes a wide range of very inexpensive to expensive guitars; the top end ones made in Japan are as good as any manufacturer's guitars. Yamaha, likewise, makes very inexpensive to expensive guitars and their top end guitars are also as good as anybody's.
Congratulations on your new Yamaha. Preferring a wider fingerboard is a very understandable preference, and that particular issue has shaped a number of purchases I have made.
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AS2000 Originally Posted by NYC
Width: 43mm at nut
Thickness: 20mm at first fret
string spacing: 10.4mm
SA2200
Width: 43mm at 0 fret
Thickness: 20.5mm at first fret
string spacing: 10.4mm
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Whenever I have to buy some product I know nothing about, with no opportunity to learn more, I will buy Yamaha, if they make one.
I've never gone wrong with that strategy.
Since I've never played the Ibanez, I don't have an opinion about the comparison.
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The AS193(MIJ) I own has the straightest neck, and maintains the lowest action, without buzz, of any guitar I have played, in 58 years. There are no flaws in the build, finish, or electrics, other than what I have inflicted.
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... this thread got super weird.
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The music industry is a shallow trench... Financial data is hard to come by, but the industry (instruments, stage electronics, PA etc.) is roughly 20 bn USD per annum. Half of that is in USA, and most of the firmware sold comes from Asia. Hobby brands typically command more interest and emotions than their size would indicate. I don't think any manufacturer of physical gear can feel safe in the ups and downs of the market. Start turning stones, and you'll find bankruptcies, restructuring, forced mergers, MBOs, LBOs and brand selling/licensing/resurrecting almost everywhere. And there is always creative destruction - the list of defunct piano makers is exhausting. Anybody making guitars in Europe on an industrial scale?
The idea of avoiding Ibanez today because of something controversial that happened decades ago is simply preposterous.
For reference, some web info: world car industry 2.9 trillion USD, alcohol 1,600 bn, tobacco 900 bn, fishing tackle 13 bn, small arms 7 bn (hard to believe.)
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I'm imagining the discussion: this guitar has a cool sound...beautiful tone...the sound of a company with its finances up to date!! And those Gibsons...they sound bad...look at the sound of a company that has already gone bankrupt and dissolved several times!!
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I bought both, Yamaha and Ibanez. Returning the Ibanez.
Thanks everyone
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Great! Tell us more please what made you make the decision, it is always fun to read guitar impressions/reviews/comparisons.
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Ok, this is opinion. Don't want anyone to get up in arms and offended. Both are beautiful. Originally Posted by tomassplatch
Physical and cosmetic build - Yammy wins:
Hands down, the yammy is a finer hand crafted instrument. you look at them side by side, pick them up, handle them, and this just jumps right out at you immediately. The bonding around the instrument and fretboard is clearly hand detailed and so consistent all around the instrument whereas the ibanez you can tell when looking closely the bonding is slightly wavy in areas, as if it were rushed a little bit. This is cosmetic and doesn't matter - but it speaks to the time and attnetion that went into the instrument in general and the quality control oversight of the manufacturer. The weight distribution is somehow so nicely balanced with the yammy also. The ibanez seems so much heavier in the body and disproportionately light in the neck and headstock. Maybe not noticable as much outside of the context of holding them both side by side. which may be the solid mahogony neck, but yammy wins here too. Finally, the luster of finish and appearance in general is just better with the yammy. Yammy wins by a long shot in this category of physical and cosmetic build.
The inlays on the fretboard are genuine mother of pearl, and split inlays meaning twice the inlay labor time for the luthier. Ibanez inlays are synthetic not mother of pearl. Acrylic. I gently opened both up to get a look at the internal electronics. This part really sealed the deal for me. Seriously. The sodering work and electrics were SOOO much more thoughtful and organized and clearly clearly clearly hand wired in the yammy. The ibanez it literally looked like everything was quickly soderd, wires were all seriously stuffed into the cavities. It just seemed rushed.
The cosmetics takeaway is that the ibanez seemed rushed and the quality control making things were perfect, just wasnt there like it was in the yammy. Night and day.
Functional build - yammy wins:
The layout of the pickup selector switch, volume and tone knobs is somehow really nicely arranged with the yammy. They just work, i don't know what to say other than it flows nicely and nothing is in the way of each other. You can tell someone thought this through very well. The ibanez gets crowded with the coil split switch being crowded in with the pickup selection switch and the 4 knobs. its just too much and i found myself having to think for a minute when i wanted to adjust things on the fly. This didn't happen with the yammy. Also, you can coil split both pickups with the yammy which is nice. Only the neck pickup splits with the ibanez. The neck shape is personal preference, but I find the yammy's neck very unique in a wonderfully nice way.
This, to me, is night and day also but i guess a lot of folks dont pay attention to woods or maybe they dont care?.... BUT...
Ibanez body front back and sides is Anigre. Anigre is new to the musical instrument worlds in the grand scheme of things. Its inexpensive to buy relative to some of the other traditional woods. One would choose to use it, because of the reduction in cost. Simply no other reason, its by definition - a lesser quality tonewood. This is a big minus to me and honesstly you hear it. Then the neck is maple and mahogany, with a layer of glue of course. howevery they use super glue - not hide glue. another cost reduction. cost reduction by way of price of material but also more importantly by way of cost of skilled labor to use and work with hide glue assembly which is a more complicated process.
Yammy body top back and sides is maple (sycamore). This we all know has been used in hollow body musical instruments since the beginning of musical instruments. The middle ages. It is more expensive than the experimental anigre in the ibanez. The center block in the yammy is also maple but a much softer maple, dried and aged. A sustain printer! The neck is solid one piece mahogany. all glue within the instrument is hide glue.
Bottom line, when you really deep dive into these instruments - the yammy blatently has taken every opportunity to voluntairly incur extra expenses to obtain high quality materials, higher quality labor by way of the processes you see they're using and choosing to use over a cheaper alternative, and tight quality control re the cosmetic things mentioned. Its no contest.
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If you own an ibanez post 1986 - sell it and buy a new yammy. If you don't believe me, do all this research. You'll be saying this when you finish too. Its impossible not to.
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No offense, you're making yourself sound like an idiot. Companies have to buy materials, pay for labor and pay for quality oversight and scrapped attempts in production that don't meet quality controls. Each one of these points, has more than one option a company can choose. They choose to either take the less expensive route or the more expensive route (when they could have taken the cheaper route but wanted to offer a better product so the higher quality expense was incurred) Originally Posted by caue amaral
I'm imagining the discussion: this guitar has a cool sound...beautiful tone...the sound of a company with its finances up to date!! And those Gibsons...they sound bad...look at the sound of a company that has already gone bankrupt and dissolved several times!!
You don't know any of this without looking at financials.
Its not about the "sound" of financials, dumbass. Its about what the company is choosing to do and how quality of a prodct they manufacture by way of those decisions..... which in the end, does what? Yes you guessed it.... SOUNDS better. That better sound being the entire reason they made those more expensive choices in production and materials.
None of that can be known unless you look at a balance sheet buddy.
....listen, before you cry about me sounding like a dick.... you asked for it.... and yes, im belitelling you becase you sound like an idiot. just think about it...
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