Best present value archtop for Kenny Burrell tone in early 60's?

[Lkdog]

Just throwing this question out there to those much more knowledgeable than me.
Looking to get into an entry level decent archtop with the woody Burrell tone of Midnight Blue, etc.
I am assuming something based on an L5 with a carved solid top.
Would prefer a smaller body if possible.

Thanks.

[Rob MacKillop]

I think you'd better tell us your budget.

[Archie]

Imo a smaller bodied, carved top, usually sounds bright and very quick, when you're probably looking for something with a deeper tone and a slower attack.
Scale length is also quite important.

For the most part unless his recording blended acoustic sound with amplified, you can get very close with almost any archtop of a similar size, scale length and pickup placement.

Probably best to find something like an older laminate or carved top, that can provide that 'worn in' type of sound that imo adds a woodier tone. Likely avoid thick asian poly finished guitars too.

A cedar top also gets you a more vintage sound but not sure how well they hold up over time, if that's important?

What is your budget?

[mr. beaumont]

The Super 400 Kenny would have been playing is indeed a solid wood instrument, but I'm not sure you need a solid wood guitar to get towards that sound.

Super 400's with built in pickups aren't really outstanding acoustic guitars. But their hollowness does effect how a note blooms and decays.

I don't think looking for a smaller body solid top is going to get you there. On a budget, I'd look at 16 and 17" laminate guitars.

Honestly, the first place I'd go for that sound on a budget would be an Epiphone Broadway.

[marcwhy]

I think you'd better tell us your budget.

This is always critical for any "wanting gear recommendations" question.

[Doug B]

Also no one has mentioned using thicker strings and a wooden bridge.

[Lkdog]

Thanks for the responses.

Looking at $500 to maybe $1200 USED.
Also needs to be something that can be resold down the road with not too much trouble.

I have a really nice '64 ES 335 Reissue so can get a lot of the way there, but might want to try a legit archtop.

[AllanAllen]

You can get a new Epiphone Broadway for that. Slap on some flats and hit the woodshed.

[Lkdog]

You can get a new Epiphone Broadway for that. Slap on some flats and hit the woodshed.

What is basic difference between that and a Epiphone Es 175 Premium?

[ruger9]

Epi Broadway is a good call. But if this info from JGF is to be trusted as correct, I think maybe a guitar with a P90 would get you there closer than a PAF? Or maybe buy an aftermarket CC-type Humbucker-sized replacement pickup, like from Vintage Vibe?

[mr. beaumont]

What is basic difference between that and a Epiphone Es 175 Premium?

The 175 will be an inch less across the lower but, but also the body will be a bit deeper.

[RyanM]

And the Broadway has the longer scale like the L5 and 400.

You need the right amp settings as well. I’ve got a Broadway with bright Seth Lovers and a Princeton. I’ve got the tone knob on 4 and the amp treble on 0 to get anywhere close.

[coyote-1]

This is always critical for any "wanting gear recommendations" question.

Not sure about this. It’s like walking into a car dealership and every question asked by the salesperson is about your budget.

no… oftentimes, the information available will determine the budget.

[Archie]

You can get a new Epiphone Broadway for that. Slap on some flats and hit the woodshed.

That won't hold value. He needs to buy second hand otherwise he can kiss 40% of his money good bye but for the budget, it's not a bad shout.

I'd try and find a used Aria PE180 They can still be had for just over £1k and hold value. If anything it will go up, unlike new or nearly new.

[Archie]

If I was you and I had your money, I'd probably jump all over this as my best chance of getting good vintage archtop and sound.

For your budget, your options are quite limited to Chinese, Korean or other budget ranges. Not that there's an issue with that but imo this guitar probably offers a more authentic sound and it shouldn't lose money.

It's if anything a little cheap which is a bit suspicious but it's in the US, you can return it if there'e an issue (it's not buyer beware Ebay customers have rights).

It's been up for a little while with no takers but looks legit. The pictures don't do it justice which always helps

!Price drop of almost $500! Vintage 1975 Guild X-175 Artist - Great condition! | eBay

Or shoot this guy $900 for his Dearmond. A Korean budget range of Guild guitars that were made in the 90's/2000's.

They have a very good reputation, play really well and hold their money nicely.

Vintage DeArmond 1999 Guild X-155 hollow body jazz guitar | eBay

[AllanAllen]

That won't hold value. He needs to buy second hand otherwise he can kiss 40% of his money good bye but for the budget, it's not a bad shout.

I'd try and find a used Aria PE180 They can still be had for just over £1k and hold value. If anything it will go up, unlike new or nearly new.

Don’t invest in guitars, especially budget imports.

[Archie]

Don’t invest in guitars, especially budget imports.

Over the long term a realitvley informed purchase of almost anything hedges inflation and could be considered a worth while investment,
Some guy in twitter bought random lego sets and tracked the value over time. He discovered that their price rise beat the returns you would get by investing in a management fund. And if you bought lego sets on a more informed bases, you did far better over the same period than any managed fund.

I think it's more a case of how not to lose money, rather than looking at this as an investment fund but there is money to be made.

Gibson ES-175's were £1,500 all day long 3-4 years ago, now they've doubled in price. Yes it took a long time for that jump to happen and some surprising behaviour from the current owners of the Gibson brand but it is what it is.

If you buy new, you lose. If you buy used, you either lose up to 20%, break even or make up to 20%. That's far better odds than buying new.

Cheap korean Dearmond guitars were £500-600 4 years ago. Now they're approaching £1,000. A perfectly sound use of £500. That's more than a 10% return per year and you had a guitar to play too!

[rpjazzguitar]

Just throwing this question out there to those much more knowledgeable than me.
Looking to get into an entry level decent archtop with the woody Burrell tone of Midnight Blue, etc.
I am assuming something based on an L5 with a carved solid top.
Would prefer a smaller body if possible.

Thanks.

I read that he used an L5 with a Charlie Christian pickup. There are pictures of him.

As I understand it, that's a pretty heavy unit which is bolted into the top with three good sized bolts, or screws, whatever the right word is.

So it's an L5 with an unusually damped top. And then, there's the studio, including its amps and board. Not counting Kenny's touch, which is incredibly important.

I don't know how you duplicate all of that at home. So, the question is how to you most closely approximate it.

In what I think might be order of importance:

Not counting Kenny's personal touch (all important), I think that you start with scale length and pickup type. The CC was a single coil. You can still buy replacements. Then string type and roughly similar gauge. Maybe then, amp and EQ. Eventually, you get to the guitar type. I'll defer specific recommendations about which guitar to others.

I'd strongly recommend thinking about it as looking for a tone that you like which reminds you a little of Kenny. It may be seriously tough to get much closer than that, unless you get exactly the same equipment - and maybe not even then. The studio has something to do with the sound. Even Wes didn't always sound like Wes.

[coyote-1]

Don’t invest in guitars, especially budget imports.

Yep. Instruments might appreciate in monetary value, but their real value is in playing them when you own them. That’s worth 100x any long term dollar gain.

[gitman]

I had been searching for Kenny's tone for many years BEFORE I got my first Super-400 CES ..... the size, weight and construction of this model in combination of his touch and experience is the key : with a laminate-top guitar it's going to be difficult and believe me, I've tried many. The usual suspects of japanese origin are good guitars but generally over-built, much more so than the Super-400 with it's 18" wide solid top and hefty bracing (and it's a HEAVY guitar !) On a budget I'd look at the various Epiphone, Peerless, D'Angelico and Eastman guitars with a 17" body, built-in humbucker(s) and pick the one that has the liveliest acoustic sound, the fastest attack. Kenny favored the tune-o-matic bridge which also has a definite effect on the tone and response of the guitar.

[Lionelsax]

Flatwound strings and the right amp setting.

[RyanM]

And a Tweed Deluxe amp - more mids and a little break up when he digs in. I’m going to try the new UA Woodrow or Ruby pedals for this.

[himself]

I had been searching for Kenny's tone for many years BEFORE I got my first Super-400 CES ..... the size, weight and construction of this model in combination of his touch and experience is the key : with a laminate-top guitar it's going to be difficult and believe me, I've tried many. The usual suspects of japanese origin are good guitars but generally over-built, much more so than the Super-400 with it's 18" wide solid top and hefty bracing (and it's a HEAVY guitar !) On a budget I'd look at the various Epiphone, Peerless, D'Angelico and Eastman guitars with a 17" body, built-in humbucker(s) and pick the one that has the liveliest acoustic sound, the fastest attack. Kenny favored the tune-o-matic bridge which also has a definite effect on the tone and response of the guitar.

Is the built in humbucker an important thing? I tend to floaters...
Thanks

[gitman]

Have you played such guitars with floaters before, for a longer time and really got to know them ? Have you used them at stage volume level or only at home ?

On several dates in the (earlier) 60's Kenny also used his D'Angelico with a DeArmond 1100 floater but he had to tape up the F-holes
on live gigs. My experience : with a built-in humbucker you get a more "electric" sound whereas a floater (especially the DeArmond models)
will add some more "air" since they tend to be microphonic - some more , others less so.

[ruger9]

Yep. Instruments might appreciate in monetary value, but their real value is in playing them when you own them. That’s worth 100x any long term dollar gain.