Why not use a powered speaker instead of a guitar amp?

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm still thinking about this issue.

Powered speakers tend to be less expensive than guitar amps and can be as powerful as you like. Class D and neo speakers mean they can be compact and lightweight.

So, why for example, would a Henriksen Blu sound much better than, say, a Bose S1 (or other high quality small powered speaker), assuming that you have the electronics you need to drive the Bose properly?

In my case, I always play with a pedalboard (Boss ME80) so I might need some additional preamplification (I do with a Mackie SRM350, but I've never tried the Bose S1). I can get it from a mixer and probably from an EQ pedal like the GE7.

There's the issue of how the internal speaker and cabinet shape the sound -- but players routinely go direct into a PA from the back of the amp (not with a microphone pointed at the speaker). Nobody worries about that, do they? [EDIT: I just did an experiment. Guitar>Little Jazz>Yamaha Mixer>Mackie SRM350 --- and then the same thing but without the Little Jazz. It was fine either way (at home -- on a gig I might need the LJ as a monitor).

And, the Henriksen is reported to be good with vocals, suggesting it's pretty flat and reasonably full range, no?

So, why don't more players do this?

[AllanAllen]

Probably because we listen with our eyes and tubes are better than solid state.

[rpjazzguitar]

A power amp/speaker has a flat frequency response which sounds pretty dull with a guitar. A guitar amp, on the other hand, usually does not have a flat frequency response for exactly that reason. It has a "shaped" frequency response because it makes the guitar sound so much better and more "alive". Which is why you need a pedal board with at least a Boss GE-7 graphic equalizer (or equivalent) to do the "shaping" before going to a power amp/speaker combination.

A power amp/speaker also will not have a reverb with it, so again it will sound dull.

As an experiment plug your guitar into an ordinary stereo system using a GE-7 as a direct box with the switch at "bypass" and see how it sounds. Then put the GE-7 into active mode (red light on) with the sliders set to some kind of positions and hear the difference. If you have a pedal with a reverb put that into the signal chain too and hear the difference.

However, some or many, guitar players may not know that the aforementioned can be done. Education and publicity is the key to wider use.

Cheers
Avery Roberts

Thank you for that.

I've tried the reverse too -- putting a vocal mic through a guitar amp. Not as good as a PA. But what of the Bud/Blu which claim to be good for both?

And, I'm thinking about guitar>ME80>Boss GE7 (for more precise EQ and bringing the level up if the powered speaker input needs it)>powered speaker. Plenty of power, with reverb, EQ and other FX). Less cnnvenient but maybe more flexible than the Blu/Bud.

[sgosnell]

Whatever gets you a sound you like, or can at least accept, is fine. I've gone direct to PA from a Line6 G10 receiver, and it sounded good enough to me, at least for rhythm playing. Using a GE-7 should work well enough, giving decent sound shaping.

[ccroft]

Might depend on what kind of thing you're doing. For the music he plays, Max405 sounds amazing going direct to the board with, from what I understand, very little EQ going on. Squeaky clean.

Myself, I enjoy a touch of the sag and distortion that the guitar amps I like provide. Think of Wes on the Verve stuff like Mellow Mood for EG. I guess you can do that with a pedal, but I like the amp kind.

I also feel that the guitar and I interact with a 12" open back cab just off to my left. I'd rather hear my amp than a floor monitor for some reason. Maybe just because that's the way I played for so many years. Same thing in the studio: Haven't been there in a long time, but I'd have one can off to hear my amp and one can on to hear the others.

[Cunamara]

I've done this, using a Zoom MS-100bt multi-effects pedal (which includes some amp modeling, speaker choices, reverb, overdrives, etc.) with pretty good results. I was hoping for broader and less beamy coverage of the room. I think it worked and got compliments from musicians and nonmusicians. I've also done the same thing with a SansAmp Para Driver DI, which had the advantage of being able to run off 48v phantom power but was very, very dry without anything else in the signal chain. I've used an Alto TS110a (I think that's right) and a QSC 8" FRFR cab.

I was hoping for the simplicity of just being able to bring the pedal and my guitar to rehearsals and gigs, but it actually ended up being simpler just bringing a combo amp. At most gigs, we just played with the horns and drums acoustically and balanced the electric bass and guitar against those volumes.

[Alter]

Guitar amps are more specialized for guitar, and much easier to get a good sound with. But basically these systems, -tubes, solid state and digital- sound and behave differently, so a lot has to do with what the player is used to, and what they are comfortable with. Someone used to digital stuff would have to adjust their technique a bit to play tubes, and vise versa. Also how bands and stages work plays a big role too. If they are used to hearing a tube amp onstage or digital, in ear etc, it wouldn't really work if one player goes against that. And if you use in ear for example, or wireless, you 've already gone digital so might as well make your life practical.

So most people i know that play gigs end up having a solution for every scenario. A tube amp, some pedals, a multi effect and many times a powered full range speaker/monitor as well. I am seeing a whole new generation of pro players that have never had a tube amp though, cause it's not practical or needed. But then they use one and are shocked with what they 've been missing (they still don't use tubes at work though ). In many (most?) cases the practical and easier way wins.

Generally the louder the volume gets, the more the differences between poor, medium and good quality gear become obvious. I sold my Victoria champ lately, and the buyer brought his little jazz to check out the Victoria. We used an ab pedal, playing jazz, and when the volume was low, we could make the amps sound almost identical. When the volume rose to loud tv, the Victoria tube amp was starting to sound glorious and there was just no comparison between them. And i know from experience that playing live through that small tube amp opens up a world of sound and response that just doesn't exist with non-tube amps, much less with monitor systems. Generally, jazz guitar is a simpler (and quieter) sound than rock guitar is with all the overdrive graduations, response and colors, that's why solid state is so popular in jazz.

.

[jorgemg1984]

I'm still thinking about this issue.

Powered speakers tend to be less expensive than guitar amps and can be as powerful as you like. Class D and neo speakers mean they can be compact and lightweight.

So, why for example, would a Henriksen Blu sound much better than, say, a Bose S1 (or other high quality small powered speaker), assuming that you have the electronics you need to drive the Bose properly?

In my case, I always play with a pedalboard (Boss ME80) so I might need some additional preamplification (I do with a Mackie SRM350, but I've never tried the Bose S1). I can get it from a mixer and probably from an EQ pedal like the GE7.

There's the issue of how the internal speaker and cabinet shape the sound -- but players routinely go direct into a PA from the back of the amp (not with a microphone pointed at the speaker). Nobody worries about that, do they? [EDIT: I just did an experiment. Guitar>Little Jazz>Yamaha Mixer>Mackie SRM350 --- and then the same thing but without the Little Jazz. It was fine either way (at home -- on a gig I might need the LJ as a monitor).

And, the Henriksen is reported to be good with vocals, suggesting it's pretty flat and reasonably full range, no?

So, why don't more players do this?

If the comparison is with an Henriksen, the main difference between the Henriksen and a powered speaker is the Henriksen will have an eq, reverb and accepts instrument level (some FRFR speakers only accept line level or mic level, others have a switch to change between line level and mic level). Also, the FRFR speaker will have a tweeter and the Henrisen not. Other than that, they're more or less the same - and FRFR speakers proove how expensive "jazz amps" are. The same argument could probably made for some bass amps.

If you're talking about a regular guitar amp, like a Fender, there's a lot more differneces between that and an FRFR speaker. They don't have a flat eq, the speaker is also not flat , they have big open back cabs, etc...

[jads57]

With my Quilters I have the advantage of both a great sounding Fender Clean and an extra channel that sounds good with Vocals Synth , Acoustic guitars. And none of the disadvantages of tube amps.

[BreckerFan]

Honestly I've never felt less inspired than when I've plugged direct into a PA at a jam lol. Maybe it just wasn't a good PA.

As others have said, PAs are generally FRFR and guitar amps are not. There are potentially quite drastic EQ differences, as guitar amps usually roll off a lot of low and high end. But also guitar amps are not always linear, which I think is the bigger difference for jazz guitarists. Subtle compression goes a long way towards producing the feel that jazzers are typically after.

[Woody Sound]

I find it kinda crazy that you *still* have to carry a speaker. Why not just use a combo?

[jorgemg1984]

Full Range, Flat Response

[John A.]

Honestly I've never felt less inspired than when I've plugged direct into a PA at a jam lol. Maybe it just wasn't a good PA.

As others have said, PAs are generally FRFR and guitar amps are not. There are potentially quite drastic EQ differences, as guitar amps usually roll off a lot of low and high end. But also guitar amps are not always linear, which I think is the bigger difference for jazz guitarists. Subtle compression goes a long way towards producing the feel that jazzers are typically after.

Yup, this. Also, when playing within a genre it’s the nature of the beast to emulate the sound(s) the genre. The people most of us try to sound like played through amps, not PAs. So we emulate those sounds, which can be hard to do with an uncolored FRFR set-up.

[Jim Soloway]

The simple answer is that powered speakers work great but you need some sort of preamp or modeler in front of it.

[Woody Sound]

Full Range, Flat Response

Or is it Flat Response, Full Range?

[Jim Soloway]

Or is it Flat Response, Full Range?

Although the truth is that none of them are really Flat Response or Full Range, otherwise they'd all sound the same and they don't. it's the same with studio monitors. They all try to get close but with limitations and allowances.

[rpjazzguitar]

If the comparison is with an Henriksen, the main difference between the Henriksen and a powered speaker is the Henriksen will have an eq, reverb and accepts instrument level (some FRFR speakers only accept line level or mic level, others have a switch to change between line level and mic level). Also, the FRFR speaker will have a tweeter and the Henrisen not. Other than that, they're more or less the same - and FRFR speakers proove how expensive "jazz amps" are. The same argument could probably made for some bass amps.

If you're talking about a regular guitar amp, like a Fender, there's a lot more differneces between that and an FRFR speaker. They don't have a flat eq, the speaker is also not flat , they have big open back cabs, etc...

Thanks. That's the direction my thinking is going in. If you're going from pedal board to powered speaker, the signal is too weak. There needs to be some additional preamplification. Setting the powered speaker to "Mic" gets you the volume, but in the two speakers I've tried, the mic input doesn't sound good, I think because of exaggeration of lower frequencies. So, I'm thinking about a Boss GE7 in between the pedalboard and the speaker. It has a good deal of gain and 7 bands of EQ. There are lots of alternatives to this -- one of which I already have -- my Yamaha mixer works very well in this role, but is not very convenient.

[rpjazzguitar]

I find it kinda crazy that you *still* have to carry a speaker. Why not just use a combo?

The whole thing started (in my mind) when I started thinking about getting a Bud. It's more than double the price of the alternative and then I started wondering about whether it would really be better than a rig with a powered speaker, given that I always play through a Boss ME80.

I've never had a chance to really evaluate a Bud, but I wondered if, in higher volume gigs, it would really hold its own, or if I'd need yet another rig. Then I thought that a rig with a powered speaker would probably be as loud as I'd ever want to play and might sound just as good.

[Woody Sound]

If the comparison is with an Henriksen, the main difference between the Henriksen and a powered speaker is the Henriksen will have an eq, reverb and accepts instrument level (some FRFR speakers only accept line level or mic level, others have a switch to change between line level and mic level). Also, the FRFR speaker will have a tweeter and the Henrisen not. Other than that, they're more or less the same - and FRFR speakers proove how expensive "jazz amps" are. The same argument could probably made for some bass amps.

If you're talking about a regular guitar amp, like a Fender, there's a lot more differneces between that and an FRFR speaker. They don't have a flat eq, the speaker is also not flat , they have big open back cabs, etc...

Sorry about the long quote, I’m on my phone.

My Henriksens have tweeters.

[rpjazzguitar]

I like stereo guitar. (stereo chorus, stereo reverb/delay) A line array is the perfect match for exploiting the 180 degree soundscape of a stereo guitar system.

Bose L1 Pro16 Portable Line Array System review | Guitar World

Cheers
Avery Roberts

Some have warned against using a line array unless the whole band, more or less, is going through it. Something about the mix in different parts of the audience.

The two times I've used a line array for guitar, the whole band was in it and I thought it was fantastic. My rig was guitar.ME80>Little Jazz>JBL Line array (the one with 7 inputs). I don't know if I needed the LJ or if it would have sounded as good without it.

I've also used a Bose L1 for vocals and I loved it. Best vocal sound I've ever gotten.

In both cases there was a natural quality to the sound that sort of made me forget that I was even being amplified.

[jorgemg1984]

Thanks. That's the direction my thinking is going in. If you're going from pedal board to powered speaker, the signal is too weak. There needs to be some additional preamplification. Setting the powered speaker to "Mic" gets you the volume, but in the two speakers I've tried, the mic input doesn't sound good, I think because of exaggeration of lower frequencies. So, I'm thinking about a Boss GE7 in between the pedalboard and the speaker. It has a good deal of gain and 7 bands of EQ. There are lots of alternatives to this -- one of which I already have -- my Yamaha mixer works very well in this role, but is not very convenient.

There are a few FRFR cabs that accept instrument level, my Mambo cabs for example, but plenty of others. Look for FRFR cabs made specifically for modelers, sometimes they do have an instrument input, others not.

I don't know your whole rig, but the Line6 HX Stomp is small, cheap, has the option of line level output and sounds great.

[jorgemg1984]

Sorry about the long quote, I’m on my phone.

My Henriksens have tweeters.

No worries, Yeah, I know they had (have?) modles with tweeters. If you add the tweeter, the differends between the henriksen and an frfr are minute.

[rpjazzguitar]

There are a few FRFR cabs that accept instrument level, my Mambo cabs for example, but plenty of others. Look for FRFR cabs made specifically for modelers, sometimes they do have an instrument input, others not.

I don't know your whole rig, but the Line6 HX Stomp is small, cheap, has the option of line level output and sounds great.

I'm over my head here, but the Line6 manual (which doesn't seem to have a spec sheet) refers to the line level output as feeding a mixer.

Based on some limited experience with the gear I've been posting about, there's a difference between what a mixer can deal with and what a powered speaker can deal with - and still sound good. It may be because "instrument level" falls between mic level and line level. Or it may be that the powered speakers want pro line level (+4dbu) and I'm giving it consumer level (-10dbv). The difference is about a factor of 4 in actual volts.

[EastwoodMike]

The whole thing started (in my mind) when I started thinking about getting a Bud. It's more than double the price of the alternative and then I started wondering about whether it would really be better than a rig with a powered speaker, given that I always play through a Boss ME80.

I've never had a chance to really evaluate a Bud, but I wondered if, in higher volume gigs, it would really hold its own, or if I'd need yet another rig. Then I thought that a rig with a powered speaker would probably be as loud as I'd ever want to play and might sound just as good.

Hi Mate,
If you have a powered PA and all its trimmings, then just get a pre-amp to shape your sound before it gets to the linear (voiced) amp in the PA. That could be as cheap as a Joyo Americana, a UA Dream65, Strymon Irridium, or if you really want the Polytone/Henriksen sound, get the Henriksen head. It has a direct or speaker out.

Note as others have hinted- FRFR means the frequency range is not only voiced as perfectly flat as it can, but the frequency range will accomodate a tin whistle as well as a double bass. Hence some of these units come with crossovers and multiple diameter speakers to hit those ranges. Your guitar in this speaker can sound shrill and painful. Normal guitar cabs by virtue of the driver and cabinet design tend to filter out the ranges to just what a guitar needs to make. You will also find that by intention, electric guitar speakers do not behave consistently the higher the volume goes up. The driver cones themselves are designed to distort in specific ways. Acoustic amps however strive to keep that consistency. they also try to reproduce all the harmonic overtones present in an acoustic input be it microphone or piezo derived.

This is why a strat sounds terrible in an AER on its own, and a nice Martin sounds weird through a Celestion or Jensen rock speaker. You need to pick your hardware for your job at hand. So ultimately a Preamp may be sufficient but you may need some sort of high signal filtering >20kHtz to nub out anything that might sneak through the Preamp.

I’m sure there are powered guitar speaker cabs about. Tech21 NYC comes to mind. (Trademaster??)

Emike

[jorgemg1984]

I'm over my head here, but the Line6 manual (which doesn't seem to have a spec sheet) refers to the line level output as feeding a mixer.

Based on some limited experience with the gear I've been posting about, there's a difference between what a mixer can deal with and what a powered speaker can deal with - and still sound good. It may be because "instrument level" falls between mic level and line level. Or it may be that the powered speakers want pro line level (+4dbu) and I'm giving it consumer level (-10dbv). The difference is about a factor of 4 in actual volts.

You may be right - I've used a mixer for a long time and now my cabs accept instrument level, so I don't have that many knowledge on that subject. You'll need to to a little research.