Considering a Polytone

[epistrophy.]

I'm a couple years into playing jazz guitar and am ready to buy a dedicated jazz amp that excels at the classic, warm kind of jazz tone I love (70s/80s Jim Hall is one of my favorite tones). I know Henriksens are very popular, but I haven't been particularly inspired by any of the clips I've heard, and it seems expensive for someone like me who is still figuring out what I like in regards to jazz tone and gear. On the other hand, though they are old and may need service, when I hear clips of various Polytone amps I always think "that's the tone I want!"

I play an ES-175 and will be using this amp at home in the practice room primarily.

I have a lead on a 90's pre-Sonic circuit Mini-Brute II (blue tolex) for $200, and a mid-80s Baby Brute for $450-ish. The Baby Brute has apparently been inspected by a tech and is in good shape. Beyond price, the MB is attractive in that it has an effects loop, which might come in handy as I've heard bad things about Polytone reverb. I also have a Line 6 HX Stomp so I imagine that the line out on either amp could be sent to the Stomp for recording or headphone practice through an impulse response -- is that correct? Aside from that one feature, my main interest is in achieving that thick, round tone that Polytones are known for. Will both of these get me there?

Does anyone have a recommendation on which way to go?

[floatingpickup]

I have owned several Polytones. I used to have a pre-sonic circuit blue Tolex Mini Brute and it was probably the best sounding Polytone I ever owned. I think that one would be your best bet if it is in good working order, especially considering the price difference. I can’t comment about using the line out for recording.
Keith

[hotpepper01]

Make sure that the original speaker is mounted still in an old Polytone.

[epistrophy.]

I have owned several Polytones. I used to have a pre-sonic circuit blue Tolex Mini Brute and it was probably the best sounding Polytone I ever owned. I think that one would be your best bet if it is in good working order, especially considering the price difference. I can’t comment about using the line out for recording.
Keith

That’s helpful! I haven’t heard much about this particular era. They share the aesthetics of the Sonic models but I’m hoping that totally they have more in common with the earlier models, and being 10-15 years more recent might be in better shape. This video caught my attention, looks like the exact model in question:

[Cunamara]

Jim might have still been using his Gibson GA-50 into the 70s. His tone is less warm with the Polytone, IMHO, although he also changed guitars from his ES-175 to his D'Aquisto around 1977 which changed his tone a lot. I'm not exactly sure when he stopped using the GA-50. Someone here will know. The Jim Hall Live! and Live Vols 2-4 were played on the ES-175, according to the photos in the booklet for the latter set.

Most amps can get you a warm jazz sound with appropriate EQ. I have a Polytone Baby Taurus, which is a nice sounding amp, but generally I use a tweed Deluxe clone or an Acoustic Image Clarus 2r and a Raezer's Edge 12" cab. I like that sound better than my old Polytone MB II, which I sold years ago. I have Fender Pro Reverb from ca. 1971 which is a wonderful if inconveniently heavy amp; a jazz tone is pretty effortless with that. I have an Egnater Rebel 30 which can also sound fine for jazz, even though it is clearly pitched at the rock crowd. I have a really cheap solid state small Fender amp which sounds good for nothing- it is only useable for making sure pickups work, so it sits under my workbench for that purpose. I've got a Roland Cube 60 COSM which sounds find in a band setting, very reliable and flexible; on its own it's a little "hard" sounding but I seem to be the only one who notices.

If you haven't tried the Fender Tonemaster series amps, I'd suggest giving them a try. I play through a Deluxe every Monday night at a friend's house and it is a great sounding amp. Fat and warm. He also has a Twin Reverb and the Deluxe gives it a run for the money. I'd like to try the Tonemaster Twin.

The potential challenge with Polytone amps is that they're pushing 50 years old and they have some unusual parts (IC chips), which can be difficult to replace- although failures of those are rare. And they used a weird OEM speaker which is impossible to replace exactly, although you can get close enough. Finding somebody who can work on one can be a challenge.

[John A.]

Jim might have still been using his Gibson GA-50 into the 70s. His tone is less warm with the Polytone, IMHO, although he also changed guitars from his ES-175 to his D'Aquisto around 1977 which changed his tone a lot. I'm not exactly sure when he stopped using the GA-50. Someone here will know. The Jim Hall Live! and Live Vols 2-4 were played on the ES-175, according to the photos in the booklet for the latter set.

From what I read, he only used the Polytone on the road. I saw him many times in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000’s in NY and NJ. I never saw him with a Polytone. It was always the Gibson, until somewhere in the 90s when he switched to the Walter Woods/Kolbe rig. I believe it was the same for recordings, i.e., Gibson or Woods/Kolbe for local sessions (or possibly whatever amp was in the studio), and Polytone for dates he had to fly to.

[epistrophy.]

From what I read, he only used the Polytone on the road. I saw him many times in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000’s in NY and NJ. I never saw him with a Polytone. It was always the Gibson, until somewhere in the 90s when he switched to the Walter Woods/Kolbe rig. I believe it was the same for recordings, i.e., Gibson or Woods/Kolbe for local sessions (or possibly whatever amp was in the studio), and Polytone for dates he had to fly to.

Yeah maybe I should have left Jim Hall out of it. Just a general reference point for me. Not trying to achieve his exact tone — trying to achieve a master’s recorded tone (which has been mixed, mastered, played back through my stereo) in my practice room has always been a fool’s errand for me. But I do think his tone in general has that vibe that I hear in Polytone recordings. These amps are also cheap, compact,and I imagine maintain their sound at a low volume, which is why I’m not looking at a Fender. My HX Stomp is a jack of all trades but I like the idea of just plugging in and not trying to re-create a tone from scratch.

[medblues]

I read that Jim Hall turned the amp volume all the way up and used lighter gauge strings. Then he would adjust the dynamic range and volume from his touch and the guitar knob. I saw him only once at Sheldon Hall in Saint Louis and he was doing this. And yes, he had a Polytone (if I recall correctly).

I currently have a 90s pre-sonic-circuit Mini Brute II with original speaker and black tolex. I have used it successfully to amplify a classical guitar, bass guitars and with an Epiphone ES-175, I get a fat jazz sound (with the dark setting more like a Jim Hall and with the normal and bright setting still a nice warm jazz tone.)

With a Henriksen Bud, I can get sounds that approximate what the MB II can give me but it has much more versatility than the MB II has. And it is much more portable.

[epistrophy.]

I read that Jim Hall turned the amp volume all the way up and used lighter gauge strings. Then he would adjust the dynamic range and volume from his touch and the guitar knob. I saw him only once at Sheldon Hall in Saint Louis and he was doing this. And yes, he had a Polytone (if I recall correctly).

I currently have a 90s pre-sonic-circuit Mini Brute II with original speaker and black tolex. I have used it successfully to amplify a classical guitar, bass guitars and with an Epiphone ES-175, I get a fat jazz sound (with the dark setting more like a Jim Hall and with the normal and bright setting still a nice warm jazz tone.)

With a Henriksen Bud, I can get sounds that approximate what the MB II can give me but it has much more versatility than the MB II has. And it is much more portable.

The one I’m looking at doesn’t have a dark/bright switch, but it does have cut/boost. Does that serve the same function or is it something else? This is the layout:

[medblues]

The one I’m looking at doesn’t have a dark/bright switch, but it does have cut/boost. Does that serve the same function or is it something else? This is the layout:

Yes that's what I meant, sorry for the wrong terms. That's the configuration mine has also but the reverb was broken when I first bought it and I never fixed it (just velcroed a mini HOF on it which sounds phenomenal).

[Simon1234]

Think about a Mambo amp.
I have an HX Stomp that sounds great through headphones and through my Fender FR10. I have a ToneMaster Twin that I'm wrestling with.
But for plug and play Polytone tones, plugging straight into my little Mambo gets me there.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm a couple years into playing jazz guitar and am ready to buy a dedicated jazz amp that excels at the classic, warm kind of jazz tone I love (70s/80s Jim Hall is one of my favorite tones). I know Henriksens are very popular, but I haven't been particularly inspired by any of the clips I've heard, and it seems expensive for someone like me who is still figuring out what I like in regards to jazz tone and gear. On the other hand, though they are old and may need service, when I hear clips of various Polytone amps I always think "that's the tone I want!"

I play an ES-175 and will be using this amp at home in the practice room primarily.

I have a lead on a 90's pre-Sonic circuit Mini-Brute II (blue tolex) for $200, and a mid-80s Baby Brute for $450-ish. The Baby Brute has apparently been inspected by a tech and is in good shape. Beyond price, the MB is attractive in that it has an effects loop, which might come in handy as I've heard bad things about Polytone reverb. I also have a Line 6 HX Stomp so I imagine that the line out on either amp could be sent to the Stomp for recording or headphone practice through an impulse response -- is that correct? Aside from that one feature, my main interest is in achieving that thick, round tone that Polytones are known for. Will both of these get me there?

Does anyone have a recommendation on which way to go?

The advantage you have is that you know the sound you want. The way GAS tends to go, you'll give in to it eventually (if you're like most of us), so you're going to have to get a Polytone.

You just have to see which of these amps has the tone you're after . Even if you could somehow identify which model is closer to the that sound , you'd still have to try the individual amps out to make sure they're working accordingly.

So it depends on if they are available to try out and if you can get a return privilege (always important IMO). You might need to buy both.

Caveat: my experience with chasing somebody else's sound by buying similar gear is that it has never ended well.

[epistrophy.]

Think about a Mambo amp.
I have an HX Stomp that sounds great through headphones and through my Fender FR10. I have a ToneMaster Twin that I'm wrestling with.
But for plug and play Polytone tones, plugging straight into my little Mambo gets me there.

Do you have any tips for getting a good sound from the Stomp? I have a little compression going into the Clarity amp, eq block with lows cut and low mids boosted, then I think a Princeton IR. Sounds pretty good but if I loved it I guess I wouldn't be here. Monitoring makes a big difference I know (using Beyerdynamic DT990s). The Mambos look great but I'm in the US so not easy to try out, and probably an expensive gamble for someone like me who is pretty new to dialing in this tone.

The advantage you have is that you know the sound you want. The way GAS tends to go, you'll give in to it eventually (if you're like most of us), so you're going to have to get a Polytone.

lol that's the truth. Anyone reading this can see me swatting away suggestions of anything other than a Polytone. It's just a matter of which one at this point. I did start my hunt looking at Henriksens but I haven't heard a demo of one that has grabbed me the way various Polytone recordings have. I kind of wish I fell in love with it so I could just save up and buy a new, reputable amp that won't give me problems. Instead I'm scouring the internet for 30+ year old solid state amps to try to salvage out of somebody's barn, zooming in on grainy photos of control panels to cross reference with forum posts.

[John A.]

Yeah maybe I should have left Jim Hall out of it. Just a general reference point for me. Not trying to achieve his exact tone — trying to achieve a master’s recorded tone (which has been mixed, mastered, played back through my stereo) in my practice room has always been a fool’s errand for me. But I do think his tone in general has that vibe that I hear in Polytone recordings. These amps are also cheap, compact,and I imagine maintain their sound at a low volume, which is why I’m not looking at a Fender. My HX Stomp is a jack of all trades but I like the idea of just plugging in and not trying to re-create a tone from scratch.

Lots of ways to skin this particular cat,
and Polytone is certainly one of them. The DV little Jazz (cheap) and the various Henriksens (expensive) are all in that sonic space, too.

[sgcim]

I read that Jim Hall turned the amp volume all the way up and used lighter gauge strings. Then he would adjust the dynamic range and volume from his touch and the guitar knob. I saw him only once at Sheldon Hall in Saint Louis and he was doing this. And yes, he had a Polytone (if I recall correctly).

I currently have a 90s pre-sonic-circuit Mini Brute II with original speaker and black tolex. I have used it successfully to amplify a classical guitar, bass guitars and with an Epiphone ES-175, I get a fat jazz sound (with the dark setting more like a Jim Hall and with the normal and bright setting still a nice warm jazz tone.)

With a Henriksen Bud, I can get sounds that approximate what the MB II can give me but it has much more versatility than the MB II has. And it is much more portable.

The problem with Henriksons is you have to figure out what the EQ thing is all about. It's taken me six months to find that info on my JazzAmp!

[epistrophy.]

I found a 90s pre-Sonic Mini Brute IV locally for $250, so I’m going to check that out in person tomorrow. This one has black tolex, so I wonder if it was some transition model between the blue non-Sonic and black Sonic series? I don’t mind paying a little more for the chance to demo it in person and it looks to be in good shape. I wasn’t really looking for a 15” but it’s just for my practice room, so portability isn’t an issue, and I’ve never tried any size Polytone so I can’t say I really have a speaker size preference.

[vintagelove]

I found a 90s pre-Sonic Mini Brute IV locally for $250, so I’m going to check that out in person tomorrow. This one has black tolex, so I wonder if it was some transition model between the blue non-Sonic and black Sonic series? I don’t mind paying a little more for the chance to demo it in person and it looks to be in good shape. I wasn’t really looking for a 15” but it’s just for my practice room, so portability isn’t an issue, and I’ve never tried any size Polytone so I can’t say I really have a speaker size preference.

The old school ones with the 15 are my favorite.

2 things to keep in mind.

1 - Any competent tech can fix a Polytone. They are certainly easier to fix than any modern jazz amp.

2 - There are 2 kinds of older polytones (try finding the diamond tolex ones). The ones that blew up 10-15 years ago, and the good ones that are left. That doesn't mean the ones that currently work will never need servicing, but if you do service them, there's a good chance they'll outlive you.

[dconeill]

The problem with Henriksons is you have to figure out what the EQ thing is all about. It's taken me six months to find that info on my JazzAmp!

I'm curious, what was the nature of the difficulty you had? I bought a Henriksen Bud years ago and I understood the EQ immediately. What was the source of information that allowed you to understand "the EQ thing"?

I used an Evans 80 for a long time and never really did understand the EQ, so at least I can sympathize with the lack of understanding.

[sgcim]

I'm curious, what was the nature of the difficulty you had? I bought a Henriksen Bud years ago and I understood the EQ immediately. What was the source of information that allowed you to understand "the EQ thing"?

I used an Evans 80 for a long time and never really did understand the EQ, so at least I can sympathize with the lack of understanding.

I found the old specs for the JazzAMP that went into detail about how the EQ worked. It said one knob controlled the E and A strings, the next knob controlled the D & G strings, and the next knob controlled the B &E strings. The other knobs were for 'tweeter-like effects. On the first gig I played after adjusting it this way a trumpet player asked me how i got the sound out of my amp I got on my last solo. He said it sounded like a Fender Rhodes.
He never heard a sound like that out of a guitar before.

[Simon1234]

Do you have any tips for getting a good sound from the Stomp? I have a little compression going into the Clarity amp, eq block with lows cut and low mids boosted, then I think a Princeton IR.

Not much to add other than to suggest you try using the cab sim block when monitoring with headphones, but don't use a cab sim when running to a guitar amp.

To aid this, in my Stomp chain I use an amp block (the Twin or JC120 usually) followed by a separate cab block, rather than the combined amp and cab block.

Also, I've found the microphone type and placement parameters in the cab sim block affects the tone quite significantly; maybe worth having a play with those dials if you've not already.

Good luck in your tone quest.

[Chazmo]

I found the old specs for the JazzAMP that went into detail about how the EQ worked. It said one knob controlled the E and A strings, the next knob controlled the D & G strings, and the next knob controlled the B &E strings. The other knobs were for 'tweeter-like effects. On the first gig I played after adjusting it this way a trumpet player asked me how i got the sound out of my amp I got on my last solo. He said it sounded like a Fender Rhodes.
He never heard a sound like that out of a guitar before.

Specifically, the JazzAmp manual states: "...think of each EQ control as a volume knob that only affects the volume level of its designated frequency range. In simplest terms, the 100Hz control is a volume knob for your low E and A string, the 300Hz control is a volume knob for the middle range of the guitar, the 1kHz for the upper range, and the 3kHz and 10kHz is for the harmonic overtones and the tweeter frequencies."

[epistrophy.]

Well I bought the MB IV today and it is glorious! EQs set all around noon and I’ve got the tone I wanted. Love that it can be nice and dark for single note playing without losing clarity on chords. Nice balance between the low and high strings, and definitely no plinky high E through this thing. It was pretty dusty but cleaned up great and seems to be working 100%. Made in 1995. Thanks for helping me make the decision everyone!

[st.bede]

Enjoy

[medblues]

Well I bought the MB IV today and it is glorious! EQs set all around noon and I’ve got the tone I wanted. Love that it can be nice and dark for single note playing without losing clarity on chords. Nice balance between the low and high strings, and definitely no plinky high E through this thing. It was pretty dusty but cleaned up great and seems to be working 100%. Made in 1995. Thanks for helping me make the decision everyone!

Enjoy ! Be careful of the glass fiber stuffing in case you open the back of the amp !

[joelf]

I'm a couple years into playing jazz guitar and am ready to buy a dedicated jazz amp that excels at the classic, warm kind of jazz tone I love (70s/80s Jim Hall is one of my favorite tones). I know Henriksens are very popular, but I haven't been particularly inspired by any of the clips I've heard, and it seems expensive for someone like me who is still figuring out what I like in regards to jazz tone and gear. On the other hand, though they are old and may need service, when I hear clips of various Polytone amps I always think "that's the tone I want!"

I play an ES-175 and will be using this amp at home in the practice room primarily.

I have a lead on a 90's pre-Sonic circuit Mini-Brute II (blue tolex) for $200, and a mid-80s Baby Brute for $450-ish. The Baby Brute has apparently been inspected by a tech and is in good shape. Beyond price, the MB is attractive in that it has an effects loop, which might come in handy as I've heard bad things about Polytone reverb. I also have a Line 6 HX Stomp so I imagine that the line out on either amp could be sent to the Stomp for recording or headphone practice through an impulse response -- is that correct? Aside from that one feature, my main interest is in achieving that thick, round tone that Polytones are known for. Will both of these get me there?

Does anyone have a recommendation on which way to go?

Those are both very sweet offers, but before you bite consider a few small things:

I've never owned one, but have played through them. They have dark sounds, which I like but w/o the right setting can possibly veer towards muddiness.

Also, the book on Polytones is that they're pretty fragile, therefore not all that road-worthy. Again, I've never owned one and cannot honestly verify that.

But they are good amps, and there are reasons why they're still around and their fans swear by them. And $200? $450? What are you waiting for? Grab both before someone else does!