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I know little about these Fender tube amps. Why is the PR so much more desirable than the BJ? They seem similar to me.
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01-09-2024 09:12 PM
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Very different amps. I have had a 65 Reissue Princeton Reverb and two USA made Blues Juniors. The Blues Junior is an EL-84 amp with solid state rectification and a 12 inch speaker. The Princeton Reverb is a 6V6 amp with tube rectification, tremelo and a 10 inch speaker (usually). IIRC, the Princeton Reverb was a higher quality build (and is priced accordingly). All of that said, I think both pale in comparison to a genuine vintage Princeton Reverb.
HTH
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Does that mean the PR has more clean headroom?
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I think so but then I don't really push an amp very hard. My experience is that the Princeton has lovely highs and lows and a scooped middle while the Blues Jr has much stronger mids and the lows aren't as rich.
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 01-10-2024 at 01:27 AM.
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Fender brought the Blues Jr. came to the market (circa 1995) at a time when Fender needed something small (like a Princeton), cheap to build, decent power (15 watts via dual EL84's) and versatile enough for bedroom playing or small gigs. Not sure why they didn't simply reissue or upgrade a version of the Princeton Reverb.
Most likely it was the 'cheap to build', and sell a bunch of em mentality at Fender at the time. They sold a ton of BJ's.
In my view a much better platform would have been simply build a 15 watt Princeton with 12" speaker, but they didn't ask me.
I bought an early edition BJ and spent way too much money upgrading it to something worthy of gigging, plus a custom cab to house it..
I still have it and it is a decent small rig for home use.
Looking back with 20/20 vision I wish I had bought a vintage Princeton Reverb or Princeton 'non-reverb back then instead. In later years I did just that. Now I enjoy a couple of vintage Princeton amps, while the BJ sits in a corner.
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The EL84 distorts quicker than a 6v6 and has the least amount of headroom. I believe in this design the answer would be yes. PR is know for it's creamy sag something that the jazz world may not really be that interested in. The PR is argulbly fenders "darker" circuits. I think this is what makes it a nice choice for jazz. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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I’ve seen a lot of blues JRs in rooms at a rehearsal space I use. Most of them have non functioning reverb. Both amps are capable of a good tone but I think the Princeton is the better of the two.
Neither can touch a vintage fender tube amp, or even a modern hand wired clone of one.
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Stock, the PR should have a Blackface tone stack. Not sure about the Blues Junior, but I think has a lot more mids, probably closer to a Tweed.
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They're similar in the fact that they're both ~15 tube amps that say "Fender" on them, but that's where the similarities end. I'd take any form of a Princeton Reverb over a Blues Junior all day long.
The Princeton Reverb is one of Fender's most iconic designs. Even the modern reissues retain the classic circuit design of the 60s originals and are completely tube powered. The standard PRRI is made with PCBs and lower quality components than a vintage original would have had, but can be good/very good with a little bit of service.
The Blues Junior is a "new" circuit that Fender designed in the '90s. It's not "all tube". It has solid state rectification, solid state reverb, and a solid state "fat" switch. It has more gain than a Princeton and has a master volume. Unlike the Princeton Reverb, it doesn't have tremolo.
I play at a weekly jazz jam where the house amp is a Blues Junior. In short, I hate it. It sounds boxy (which I attribute in part to being a 12" speaker in a fairly small cabinet), overly bright (EL84s will do that), the reverb is unpleasant, and it doesn't stay clean enough. It imparts a same-ness to the sound that tends to squash the uniqueness of each individual instrument. In other words, I don't hear the guitar, I hear the amp.
My advice is to go with some form of Princeton. If you put about $200 of service into a new Fender reissue, you'll have an amp with long term reliability. But your best bet is to look into one of the many handwired clones that are on the market today: Mojotone, Vintage Sound, Allen, Headstrong, etc. There are a bunch of options to get something for under $2000 that will be much closer to a vintage original, will last a lifetime, and, most importantly, you'll want to play.
I could go about this subject for a while, including some mods that can be done to a Princeton to really make it spectacular (it was a student model after all and Leo cut a few corners), but I'll stop here for now.
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Another suggestion...Fender mid-80's Princeton Reverb II. Great amp!!
22 watts from dual 6V6 tubes, solid state rectification, tube-driven Reverb, (no vibrato), 12" speaker in a solid pine cab, sized between a Deluxe Reverb and Princeton. Excellent platform for home or playing out.
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Something else to add to this discussion: Both of my USA Blues Juniors had a lot of noise when the reverb was used. It is my understanding that Fender fixed this problem when production was moved to Mexico.
Also, I spent a lot of money on my 65 Princeton reissue (Speaker swap, tube swaps and transformer swap) and was never able to get as good a tone as I did with any of my vintage Princetons (I had three of them). I do not think the reissue Princeton Reverbs get you all the way to vintage Princeton tone.
But tube amps are now in my rear view mirror. They are too much trouble and my Quilter gets me 95 percent of the way to Tube amp tone and feel. In the real world of gigging in noisy rooms, that 95 percent will do!
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I prefer the non reverb Princeton amps over the verb one. If I need a little verb type space, and still not color the sound too much, I would put a little slap delay on the front.
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The non-reverb Princeton is a CLEAN MACHINE.
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The power amp section of the non reverb is the same as the reverb princeton and it is lacking a gain stage, so the overall volume output of the non-reverb is actually lower than the reverb princeton. If you want to have the same "headroom" as the non-reverb princeton with a reverb princeton, all you need to do is turn your guitar volume down. I owned a non-reverb princeton because people on forums talked about how it's clean all the way up the dial. Yes that's true that it's clean. It's also quieter than a reverb princeton. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
However, a non-reverb princeton is amazingly light! Put a reverb pedal in front and you're in business. Overall weight of that rig is probably 1-2 lbs more than a henriksen bud 10.
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I think the Blues Jr. bashing and assertions of how vastly different it is from a PR are overstated. Think of it as a Venn diagram. There are sounds each can get that the other can't and sounds they both can get (or at least come very close to each other). If the sounds you like are outside the intersection of the circles, you'll prefer one over the other. Beyond that they have similar overall volume and clean headroom. I Had a '78 PR for long time, have played through a BJ many times, and also compared at length side-by-side a vintage PR, PRRI, and a BJ. Speakers are a big wild card in the comparison, though. For example, my 78 had a more efficient speaker than a stock PRRI, and it was louder and cleaner. But overall, they're all usable good sounding amps.
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The Blues Junior was / is part of the Fender’s Blues or Hot Rod series from ’90s, I suppose.
Fender Hot Rod Amps – DeVille IV, Deluxe IV, Blues Junior
There is Pro Junior too with same amount of wattage but smaller speaker. And Blues Deluxe is surely one of the most popular of Fender’s ”modern classics”.
I suppose Blues Deville has about same 40 W amp as Blues Deluxe in a 2 x 12 housing.
It was time before the internet and the 2000s vintage model boom. Which has brought us PR Reissues etc. classic models.
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It should also be noted that there are countless clones and near clones of the Blackface PR. Many of them are really very good and available for much less than an original. I would also note that the PR Tonemaster is a petty good sounding amp for not a lot of money and weighs about 20 lbs.
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The Custom Shop '64 PR is so close that I doubt I could tell it from an original. We've had one in our backline for the last 4+ years, and I've used it a lot with archtops and solids for blues and jazz. It's one sweet little amp, and I wouldn't throw it out of my gear closet if it came home with me. It's a totally different amp from the standard production PRRI, and I think it's pretty much the equal of most of the originals I've played through over the years. An occasional amp just sounds better than others that should be identical, but the CS PR seems typical of the "average" original BF Princeton Reverb to me. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
On the other hand, its list price of $2800 would deter me from buying one myself because there are other amps out there in that price range that I like better. OTOH, it'd be no contest at all if a used CS PR and a new PRRI were even close to the same price.
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I can't speak for the Custom Shop PR but I had a custom shop 64 deluxe for a minute. Sold it pretty quick. Yeah it's made by hand but on a cost-efficient assembly line. Needed a repair on day one due to a cold solder joint. The materials are interesting. Back panels feel like cardboard. And sounded pretty different from any pre cbs blackface I've played and/or owned. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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While the PR certainly sound prettier, I think the lack of bass and increased mids can help the BJr sit in a mix. What can come across as nasal in isolation can fit nicely once you add bass, drums, etc.
I no longer own one, but I did play and gig one for a number of years and it got the job done. The main complaint was that at higher volume the bass became wooly, but I rarely played that loud.
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That’s all interesting, for sure. The CS PR (like the DR, according to Fender - I’ve never seen a CS DR in the flesh) is in a solid pine cab. I haven’t paid any attention to the back panel, but I’ll check it out tonight at the gig. A cold solder joint is a risk of hand soldering in any amp. We have every right to expect consistently excellent workmanship in any Fender amp, let alone a $2800 “custom” build whether at a lone bench or on a line. It takes an extra fraction of a second to do it right. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
But I’m surprised that your CS DR sounded bad. I don’t know anybody else who has or had one, so I can’t say that I’ve heard anything different. At those prices, the new ones ought to be excellent, for sure. A side by side shows how similar the CS DR is to an original DR:
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Psionic Audio (who is an excellent amp tech) just did a two-part video on servicing a 64 Hand Wired Deluxe Reverb. He was not overly enthusiastic about it.
He's done other videos in the past on DRRIs and PRRIs. His advice can be summed up by saying "go silverface or boutique"
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i lent out my green board mk1
blues jnr to a friend
while his amp (music man combo) needed fixing
(he plays mainly electric blues
and is into Robben Ford etc)
when he returned it he said
”yeah it’s a nice tubby sounding amp”
(note , not ‘tubey’)
I know what he means ….
I think ”tubby” equals fat midrange in this case
my Blues jnr certainly doesn’t have
that typical Fender shiney top end at all (which happens to suit me)
I can see why players wanting that
exquisite glassy shiney finish
Ted Green type sound wouldn’t want
a Blues junior (mk1 at least
don’t know much about the cream board later ones)
but it’s got a nice thick , thumpy “tubby” push in the middle of the sound which works great with a band
playing medium volume jazz , soul , blues etc
and with the MVol breaks up
just about where you want it
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I’ll have to watch this later but “meh” was my exact reaction. I felt spoiled bc I was comparing it with the 64 vibrolux reverb and 64 Princeton reverb I have at home. But yeah I agree at the list price of $2800 there are better alternatives. An early CBS or boutique would be a better instrument. Financially speaking the “fender” badge might contribute long term market value to this amp, but I care more about the instrument than what others are willing to pay for it. Originally Posted by andrew
Edited to add: $2800 is a LOT of money for an amp, vintage or not. I don’t think it’s necessary to spend that kind of money for a top quality amp. The amp that replaced my handwired deluxe was a used Louis electric Columbia (28w Princeton circuit with a mid knob). It cost me a little more than half what the deluxe reverb costs new and it is more than twice the amp.
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I agree completely. The CS PR I use belongs to the club. I would never have recommended buying it, had I been asked. I do like it - but I would not have spent that kind of money on any amp for a mic'ed backline, let alone that one. FWIW, I'm not bowled over by the '68 VIbrolux reissue either. Again, I was not asked if I wanted it - I just showed up one day and there it was. The same is true for the DVM Jazz 12. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I've been playing for the owner for about 17 years now, and I'll use whatever he has if it means not having to drag my own amp. When we started working together at his original venue (he's also the bass player in my blues band), he only had the tweed Blues Deluxe, a big SS Fender bass amp, and an early red stripe Peavey Transtube. So I brought my Boogie MK 1 combo every time. After a few years, I cut back to my Vox Night Train head and Boogie Thiele EVM cabinet. The blues band's vocalist ran his guitar through the Blues Deluxe all this time. But when he left the band and I ended up being the only guitar, I switched to that until the current club was bought and opened - and I've been using the backine ever since for both blues and jazz gigs every week.
The touring acts who play Fridays and Saturdays are thrilled to find a decent backine, so the choices have worked out well for the club and the performers. But none of these amps would be my personal choice if I were using my own. When I'm in the mood, I bring my Blu or the DV Mark EG250 and a 10" Tube. But the CS PR and the '68 RI Vibrolux are very good amps that do the job well enough.
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