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Which brings me to my next observation: It seems there are different standards from the purchasing POV regarding relicing. Beat up Teles and Strats, and to a lesser degree, Les Pauls are somehow given a pass and even (obviously) have become objects of desire, but many on this forum, I would suspect, would be suspicious of an early 60's L5 that looked like it had been left out in the rain or used as a garden rake or cricket bat.
Some tarnish, some lacquer checking, wear on the neck finish, and a few small dings would likely be acceptable, buckle rash less so ( a sign of disrespect in my world) but an L5 that was the equivalent of Rory Gallagher's strat would I think have much less appeal to most, though undoubtedly some will still look past that.
Why the difference in sensibilities? Do we conjure up a different kind of glorified past for a relic'ed Tele or strat, from a harder life on the road, playing in smokey bars and dives, a harder, more honest musical life, vs. a slightly worn Gibson archtop, coming from a more refined life of nightclubs, TV studios, universities, backing up elegant female soloists, etc? Nothing wrong here, we are all entitled to our fantasies, but all relic'ed guitars are not equal, it seems, faux or not.
I think there would not be a huge market for relic'ed but brand new Porsches or Toyotas, Steinways, flat screen TVs, or new homes, but clothing, furniture, some artwork, some hand tools and writing instruments, knives and ballcaps are desireable in a state of partial degradation.
I don't know about the world of classical instruments, but I imagine the tone of a 200 year old violin, along with structural stability is the most important thing, but I would bet that a top tier violinist would also like their instrument to look good, as well, if secondarily. Not sure that Segovia would be slavering over Willie Nelson's Trigger, but I never met the old guy (although my dad did take me to hear him once when I was 12... I don't recall his guitar looking particularly worn out).
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02-21-2024 11:48 AM
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Honestly, I think it's a perception on what a guitar can take...I think the general perception (which would be mostly true) is that a solidbody plank can take more abuse than a hollowbody...so they can accept more wear on them...too much wear on say, an L5, and I'm thinking..."ooh, what's wrong with it?"
I mean, I once slipped and fell down a wet staircase while my tele was strapped around my neck. it hit a few stairs, the wall, and popped up and busted my lip clean open. I think the high E was slightly out of tune after the fall.
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That's the musician - the good ear - in us.
Originally Posted by yebdox
If I only had more time!
As I said, my mind veers sideways a bit, not meant to suggest any purchasing behavior for anyone or to deride people's interests, but this post has certainly evoked a wide range of responses. Yours is the correct one.
All in fun, and apologies to any wives who have lower opinions of their husbands as a result.
Amy Bundersnatch felt good on the tongue, so I went with it.
Seriously, this entire story, and any story, can be an outright lie, but damn, the record store was indeed on the south side, and the county jail kitchen - - . : )
All in fun and putting a smile on someone's face !
Good going !
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It's all part of the show
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If Gibson put out a “Murphy Lab Ultra Light Aged” L5 Wes Montgomery model I’d be first in line to buy it.
I love my L5s but in terms of feel they just don’t compare to my 60-70 year old Gibsons.
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There was an old (I know, I know - I'm the pot who's calling the kettle black...) blues guy in Philly years ago who drilled a few 1/4" holes through his white solid body guitar and burned the edges with a blowtorch. They really did look like bullet holes.
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We work in offices, but we long to work with tools. Originally Posted by yebdox
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We're not all in offices, but I get what you're saying. Originally Posted by Litterick
Tastefully aged can be cool. That telly in question is cool. Busted looking like it was left in a ditch not so cool, but to each their own.
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Here's a reliced archtop, and it even has a Bigsby! Shoot!
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Copy of the famous '61 belonging to RF? Looks great, but the anal side of me would probably at least try to clean the grime off. Though not with Comet. Maybe Easy-Off. Originally Posted by alltunes
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I think you are right, at least to a good degree. But then, solid bodies have often been the weapon of choice for Blues/Rock/smokey bars/angry young dudes, and thus have stood testimony more often to the randy-er (randier?) side of life that some of us long for, or remember. Johnny Smith's love life or difficulty with controlled substances was probably not the stuff of gothic romance novels or People magazine. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Now THAT is creative relic-ing... Built in faux history! But, what kind of woman would be interested in a character slinging a guitar like that, after the gig? Might scare some away, and the ones that showed interest might not be the kind you take on a picnic, for better or worse. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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...and then there's that guy who didn't have a case and didn't care, so he carried his guitar in his hand through Chicago snow -
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... and left it in a club in Montreal (though probably not for lack of a case) Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
...and then there's that guy who didn't have a case and didn't care, so he carried his guitar in his hand through Chicago snow -
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It's a moral problem:
You are performing and between sets someone says something like, "Nothing like those old ones" or "That one has seen a long life of playing" or some other words revealing they think your instrument is old.
Do you...
- hold the deception and let them continue to believe it's old, you knowing it's phony?
- break the deception and reveal it was defaced deliberately to make it appear old?
* phony: not genuine; fraudulent
** deface: to spoil the surface or appearance
10K+ hours of stage performance, 36 year old guitar (treated with care)
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Poly finish be like that. Originally Posted by pauln
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Since you were there, what was the consensus on the '59's during the late 60's to mid 70s? Was it "just a used guitar" or was it a "59 BURST!!!!!!"? Were people recognizing that there was something special about it in the 60's and 70's when it would've just been a used guitar otherwise? He seemed to have recognized the guitar's worthiness but I don't think it dawned on him it would ever see six figure values either. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
...and then there's that guy who didn't have a case and didn't care, so he carried his guitar in his hand through Chicago snow -
I can't say I get that excited about early or mid 200'0's strats but I do like the Memphis Gibsons from the early 2000's. Still, they are just "used guitars" to me.
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I remember knowing about them being superior instruments before I was out of high school in 1969. A friend of mine brought in a '50's gold top and we oohed and ahhed it then. Bloomfield and Clapton had already made them famous, they weren't just used guitars. They were superior guitars, and only about 8 years old then so not really very aged either. I was offered one in the early '70's for $2K, but that was a lot of money back then, couldn't swing it. I did get a '60 ES345 for between $500-700 in the early '80's. Originally Posted by DawgBone
And vintage Martins were certainly known to be superior then as well. No one was too excited about Fenders back then, though. Even in the early '80's, I was able to buy a '63 strat for $750.
It's been a long time since these were just used guitars, if you played a newer one it was pretty obvious to anyone who could play a bit that the old ones were much better.Last edited by bluejaybill; 02-21-2024 at 09:08 PM. Reason: spelling
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I would like to buy an old, pounded tele, strat, and/or various Gibsons. How would I find them? Everything I see is supposedly either excellent, very good or reliced. Where are the "beat, played, take it or leave it" guitars?
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You can't always know why someone chooses to buy a "relic'd" guitar or one with an antiqued finish.
I went into that famous music store in Chicago (I forget the name) and saw what I thought was a used ES175. Played it a few moments and fell hard in love with it. Looking at the price tag I expected "yeah right!" but was astounded to see a price UNDER $2000 and that was with free shipping and no sales tax if I logged onto the store site and bought it from my phone!
So you better believe I bought that VOS 1959 ES175 and I play it every day and totally love it.
I imagine there are a lot of those kinds of stories out there. You can't assume "fake age" means some kind of false motive by the buyer.
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There's a reason Gibson stopped making LP's from 61-67, poor sales (I'm not counting SG's, a different guitar of course)
Bloomfield to a degree but I believe it was mainly that English fellow on that Beano lp that brought them back to prominence and led to Gibson reissuing them in 68.
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Seems a 2023 relic finish would sound and feel like a 2023.. not something 60 years old. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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In 1959, I was 13 years old and playing an LG-1 with a DeArmond pickup through a 5 Watt Kay amp. The next year I started high school and got a used 345 and a used Reverberocket. So I’d followed the used market closely through my dealer, local ads, and national classifieds in rags like Downbeat. A Les Paul was not on anybody’s radar. There were a lot of used gold tops out there, but none of the local or national players I knew of cared. And the bursts were so rare that few even knew about them. There were only about 1500 made between 1958 and 1960. Originally Posted by DawgBone
In the summer of 1960, my band was working for radio station WMID in Atlantic City playing at their record hops and opening for national acts at their big shows. We opened at the Ocean City (NJ) Convention Hall for a major act with a hit 45. I headed for the stage from the wings and the guitar player in the main act yelled “You can’t play that thing (the LG-1) out there!”. I told him it was all I had. He handed me his brand new gold top LP and told me to plug into his Bassman. It was an epiphany for sure, and it pushed me to seek a better guitar. I looked into LPs, and the gold top was the one recommended to me. The sunburst Standards were unheard of in the real world back then - demand was zero among working players, and dealers neither had any or recommended them. The few that hit the general market were just “used guitars”. I bought a well used 345.
The 3X5s were popular and the SGs did pretty well through the ‘60s. Clapton played the “Fool” SG on Cream’s Disraeli Gears album in ‘67, even though he’d bought an original burst Standard 2 years before. And I think he played it on most or all of their gigs and albums until Cream disbanded. But Gibson was sloppy seconds for solid bodies except to the few who knew about and coveted bursts and didn’t mind the weight. They started to catch fire when blues-rock got hot later in the ‘60s. Players like Peter Green, Bloomfield, Duane Allman, and Clapton started playing LP standards in the mid ‘60s, and the flame was lit. They went from being used guitars in the early ‘60s to being holy grail to the rock blues elite by 1970.
The reintroduced LP line never lost momentum from then on, and the ‘58-‘60 sunburst LP standards took off in value and popularity. By the end of the ‘70s, it was a “ ‘59 BURST!!!!!” and the frenzy grew every year.
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A relic is just another finish option. If you don't like it, like you don't like pepto-bismol pink, then don't buy it. It's literally as simple as that. I have a dark red archtop that I KNOW would devalue the guitar to others, and that's on them as far as I'm concerned.
Last edited by jim777; 02-22-2024 at 09:36 AM.
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I could be wrong, but I think the reason they stopped LP production in 1961 was that Paul was in the middle of a nasty divorce from Mary Ford. He cancelled his endorsement contract because the settlement Ford sought (and eventually got) was based on his future earnings. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I think Gibson sold all 1500 of the Standards that they made between ‘58 & ‘60. They only sold about 1/3 as many LP Customs, and I suspect the 3x5 numbers are no higher than the LPs. 500 LP Standards a year back then was probably about right for a guitar that expensive with limited utility. A Standard was $265 in 1960, a single pickup 175 was $250, a 175D was $275 and a 330 was also $250. For reference, a ‘60 Telecaster Custom was $239.
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