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As you wrote above, you were interested in an ES125 from 1952. Is it that guitar we are talking about?
I take it for granted that an ES125 from that era has a fretboard and a bridge made of Brazilian Rosewood. According to the regulations of CITES no certificate for export/ import should be possible if I read the rules correctly. As far as I know there is still no exemption limit for trading small amounts of BR, like the little mass of a fretboard.
Of course, there is a chance to import that guitar without declaration of that banned wood and hope that either no inspection at customs will happen or the one who makes an inspection is not interested/experienced in vintage guitars. But that is risky nowadays...
10 years ago no one paid attention to the CITES ban for Brazilian Rosewood also for guitars however the rules were already effective since 1993. Because no one was aware of it.
Also at that time guitar companies like PRS or Fender sold guitars in small numbers in Germany promoted with Brazilian Rosewood fretboards. They were of course imported from USA into the EU after 1993. It looks like that no one, neither the guitar manufacturer nor customs, had thought about it.
But times have changed since then...
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05-24-2024 06:40 AM
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The more I read the more confused I'm getting!
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Welcome to the forum.
Originally Posted by garybaldy
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Thanks for my first welcome message. Been waiting 14 years! Originally Posted by pcjazz
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For me personally, I handle it quite simple. Originally Posted by garybaldy
I stay away from guitars built with parts of Brazilian Rosewood without mentioning a CITES certificate in the description.
This makes my life easier
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Not many, if any, do - certainly private sellers. I've been looking at a lot recently for that purpose. Originally Posted by bluenote61
For me personally, I handle it quite simple.
I stay away from guitars built with parts of Brazilian Rosewood without mentioning a CITES certificate in the description.
This makes my life easier
From your post it sounds to me as though it's something a seller should or is obliged to do. It would certainly speed up a sale. Either they are not aware of it or, as I have mentioned before, they can't be assed hoping the buyer is none the wiser and it becomes a nightmare for them.
Is a CITES certificate required for an instrument to be able to leave it's country of origin or just at the country it arrives at? Or both? (Just in case I want to sell my '63 175. Actually that won't happen but my kids might!.) Thanks
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To my knowledge a CITES certificate is mandatory for any trading of such an instrument, either abroad or inland. Also, only the seller can ask for a CITES certificate, because he is the owner and has the required information about the instrument. Originally Posted by garybaldy
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In addition to a.m., in case I would have to sell a 63 ES175 here in Germany I would do as following.
The authorities in Germany ask for an expertise about the instrument and the reason to be allowed for trading, i.e. built before March 1947 or imported into the EU before 1992 (the year CITES regulations went effective). With such an expertise I would be able to apply for a CITES certificate.
NB: The way how one can make believe that the instrument was imported into the EU before 1993 is depending on the local authorities which "level" of plausibility they will accept.
NBB: When I have a look on the websites of the well known vintage guitar dealers in Germany listing a large number of US guitars with BR fretboards and CITES certificate, it should not be impossible to get a CITES certificate...
Last edited by bluenote61; 05-26-2024 at 03:41 AM.
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That makes sense Originally Posted by bluenote61
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Maybe the rules vary by country: in Canada certificates are only required for import or export. The permit is to be applied for by the Canadian exporter or importer respectively. Originally Posted by bluenote61
Trade in protected species permits – applications forms - Canada.ca
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
In my post I was refering to an instrument made in the US and traded in a different country. It is evident that it must have been imported in the past.
Hence we are back to the CITES certificate which has to be available for that instrument to make it a legal imported guitar.
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Being in my late 60's, I also have become a believer in "Murphy's law". I would not buy a guitar coming from another Country that I knew contained Brazilian Rosewood. To me, doing so opens the possibility of a stressful transaction. There are plenty of other guitar choices to make.
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Despite what I may have implied above I actually avoid all woods that may be a future source of annoyance. I can already foresee the hassle it'd be to get a certificate for an instrument built in some currently recent past and for which now no such things are required. Avoiding ebony is a step too far even for me but that aside I find I even prefer local, sustainable woods for looks and sonic properties.
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Just out of curiosity I searched "Brazilian Rosewood Bridge" on Reverb and got this Just a moment...
Most listings are in the US - a few old bridges, a few newer PRSs and other guitars.
The bridges look to be 50s/60s. The PRSs a lot newer.
Of the items I viewed none mention CITES and yet they seem to welcome overseas buyers. Would CITES be required for all these items to be exported out of the country?
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Thanks for the link. It's curious to see how many sellers still do not care about the regulations of CITES. Originally Posted by garybaldy
Few of the guitars offered in this list mention a CITES certificate, e.g. a PRS from Italy and a non-Fender Strat from the US.
For me outstanding is a seller from Poland who will sell his PRS only in the EU due to a fretboard of Brazilian Rosewood. Either the seller does not know that he will need an intra-EU trade permit for the sale of his guitar or he is hoping to fly below the radar of any customs because a sale within the borders of the EU doesn't cross any customs border.
Curious in any case. How many of these offers in Reverb will be sold without consequences, i.e. undetected by any authorities?
I think still a lot. But It's like a lottery.
FYI, here in Germany the whole drama with "illegal" guitars due to fretboards of Brazilian Rosewood started with a letter to the editor in a german guitar magazine, I think it was in 2011. In this letter, the writer complained that he had offered in eBay two or three PRS guitars with Brazilian Rosewood fretboard pointing out the rarity of those guitars in the description. But the offer was also read by customs. One day they rang his door bell and confiscated the guitars leaving back a guy who didn't understand anything what happened. He was told that the import was illegal and therefore the guitars will be destroyed according to the law...
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Drama indeed. Again, imagine if EIRW or "real" mahogany become illegal like that at some point, and you're not even safe if your own home anymore. Did you keep all proofs of purchase or other forms of acquisition when there was never an official certificate to claim the instrument was free of illegal woods? (Not to mention your family heirloom furniture in case of mahogany.) Originally Posted by bluenote61
Players of bowed instruments have faced such situations with the even stricter regulations on ivory, in the beginning of the CITES application. Use of ivory in the instruments had already become rare by then but not in bows where the headplate was commonly made of a sliver of ivory. I had a beautiful modern bow from the 1920s that was "tainted" like that, and for a while played an instrument from '82 that has a few parts made of supposedly antique ivory (nut, endpin, and a few hidden pegs). I did put it up on Reverb when I wanted to sell it, but without drawing any attention to this detail.
Funny, thanks in part to this thread I had a "whaaaat" reaction the other day when IG served me an ad from some French store vaunting a new BRW Martin model. Why does a factory still use this wood, and why did it get imported here.
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The possession of guitars with Brazilian Rosewood w/o CITES certificate is not illegal, only the trading. Originally Posted by RJVB
And if the regulations will get stronger by enclosing other endangered species, you can apply for a certificate due to prior possession.
I have prepared myself for such case already for all my guitars containing parts of other rosewood species, like e.g. Bubinga or Indian Rosewood. I sent a list of those guitars with description of serial number, year of manufacture, etc. to the local office for nature protection and got it back officially signed and stamped.
Also Indian Rosewood is now listed in the CITES, but with the traffic light standing on 'yellow'. Trading is still permitted but who knows how long.
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Thanks for your interesting post. Originally Posted by bluenote61
Ignorance can be dangerous!
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You maybe want to delete this part! Originally Posted by RJVB
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Just wondering, what if you bought it from abroad last week, it then got through customs some how and you now have it without a CITES certificate? Originally Posted by bluenote61
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First of all, in this case you are a smuggler of an endangered species. Originally Posted by garybaldy
But this delict is subject to a limitation period. After that period no one will sue you anymore for the smuggle. But you cannot sell it without breaking the law again.
I think my wording in my post was a bit unclear. Hope this clarifies what I wanted to say.
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I'm just wondering for how long I wouldn't be able to sleep! Originally Posted by bluenote61
First of all, in this case you are a smuggler of an endangered species.
But this delict is subject to a limitation period. After that period no one will sue you anymore for the smuggle. But you cannot sell it without breaking the law again.
I think my wording in my post was a bit unclear. Hope this clarifies what I wanted to say.
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