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Worth listening to. This is about as careful a test as you'll get without a frequency analyzer.
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05-31-2024 07:51 AM
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Probably not so much an issue on a fretted instrument esp. one where you can just replace the entire neck, but the main reason why luthiers moved to using ebony for fingerboards is that it is much harder wearing. Even with gut strings most local woods would require too frequent shaving, and ultimately replacement.
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The obvious methodical problem with these tests is that they use one example of each type that they are testing and they generalize the results to all instances of the types.
A better test would have a second phase that uses , say, 10 instances of each type and show that the generalizations are reasonably justified.
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If you serve the same food on two different coloured plates, your perception of how it tases, will change.
The fact that you know which neck he's playing will alter your perception of how it sounds.
This is the only truth.
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That’s a great find, Marty - thanks so much! I heard exactly the same things they did, and it held up in blinded comparison with good headphones and the screen out of sight.
I didn’t hear him say that all 3 necks had the same frets and were identical in profile etc, and he didn’t weigh them to see if any had more mass. So there may be other factors in play - it’s not a complete or perfect comparison. But it seems to confirm what I’ve always heard (or think I heard). Ed Bickert must have heard it too.
I think there’s enough difference to make rosewood imperative for better jazz tone from a Strat or Tele. My Tele 7 has a set mahogany neck with a maple board, and there’s a slight Tele twang that can’t be completely dialed out with EQ without skirting Pat Martino darkness. So it’s a great all purpose working guitar. But if I didn’t also play blues gigs, I’d rather have a rosewood board. I knew this back in ‘70 when I got my first Tele - I picked a sunburst Custom with a rosewood board for its tone, after trying every Tele my dealer had in stock. I only bought the Tele 7 with maple because there was no available alternative short of a custom build at 3+ times the price.
Great stuff!
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Not only that, but the player knows he's playing different necks, and he is doing it at different points in time and quite obviously not playing them exactly the same ways. Plus, even allowing for all the problems of sample size and lack of blinding or control, he's testing entire necks made from different billets made and finished differently. So, yeah, each of those do sound different (I closed my eyes during the segment where he mixes them up in sequence), but often so do two different guitars that are ostensibly spec'd the same way in every detail (including neck).
Originally Posted by Archie
If you serve the same food on two different coloured plates, your perception of how it tases, will change.
The fact that you know which neck he's playing will alter your perception of how it sounds.
This is the only truth.
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Here is another comparison with to my ears different results. In this case the maple sounds warmer than the rosewood IMO.
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I've had teles with maple, rosewood, and ebony fretboards.
They were all a little different, and of course, there were other factors that were different as well...One guitar though, I had a maple neck for years, then had a replacement made with ebony, so I can do a little more of a direct comparison...Ebony was brighter, actually. I actually recently switched that one back to maple.
All of them could be made to sound pretty much exactly the same with a little EQ tweaking. I think overall the tone difference imparted from the fretboard material is pretty small. Feel, though, is another thing.
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So each neck definitely has noticeable signature in the overall sound. But it's hard to generalize the tone based on the wood. I have an all parts rosewood tele neck that makes the guitars sound very bright and stringy compared to 3 maple necks I have. I've tested this on 2 different Tele bodies. But I had a rosewood neck on of my strats (that I no longer have) which did impart a very warm, round tone on guitars that I installed it to.
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…not if you close your eyes and are given them in random order. And you can control for intertest consistency by presenting the same one multiple times. Originally Posted by Archie
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I used to own a Gibson ES-339 Studio that had a Baked Maple fingerboard, and I assume a maple neck as well. I really enjoyed that combination on that instrument. It had had a bit brighter snap!
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Until I got to the unprocessed DI clips at the end, I was surprised to hear a hair more bottom in the sound from the maple. But without the heavy processing (at least heavy to a jazz guy), I hear a difference similar to that in the comparison clip that Marty posted (more so from the neck pickup). And on further listening to the whole thing, I think note definition in chords is a bit cleaner from the rosewood neck. There’s a bit more mud in low mids and bass in chords from the maple, which makes it sound a bit fatter. But I don’t hear this difference without the processing (which emphasizes odd order distortion in the signal and adds more of its own). Originally Posted by Tal_175
Unlike the first one, this comparison does not control for the basics of setup that affect sound, eg string height above pickups, neck slot prep etc. Like the first one, we don’t know if the structural elements are the same - frets, neck profile and mass, etc. They should have used a torque wrench to tighten neck screws equally for both. Even the springs in the trem could cause tonal differences if the set tension causes resonances that affect one neck more than the other. They should have used hardtails. Neither is highly scientific, but it’s a start. As Tal_175 points out, it takes multiple trials and tighter controls to get repeatable results. Without repeatability, meaningful conclusions are hard to reach.
I’m thrilled to see more attempts at objective comparisons of purely anecdotal issues.
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Mad-at-tonewood.
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To me the difference has always been obvious. And yes, some of that may be psychological. The bottom line is that I prefer mahogany necks with rosewood fingerboards. I have what you might call ‘bright hands’ and maple necks and/or ebony fingerboards make me sound ice-picky. That bothers me, so I try to compensate, get distracted and play less well. It adds up to something really noticeable. Others might hear different things and respond differently. The nature of the perceived difference isn’t universal. But it seems hard to dispute that there is a difference.
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150k+ views in 2 days! Another great video to distract young players away from real musical goals and get lotsa clicks.
A few Dire Straits riffs is not exactly a great way of putting a guitar through its tonal paces, is it?
I think I've seen pics of Julian and Ted playing maple neck Teles, whereas Ed was a stalwart rosewood + humbucker fan,... or was it that he swapped out the single coil to reduce noise and maybe he just happened to like a particular guitar which had a rosewood board?
FWIW, I prefer the feel of ebony, but it's not going to be a deal-breaker if it's something else. Maple "looks" bright, lol.
BS
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But why, given that the string doesn't even have to touch the wood on a guitar? Would it really be how well the fretboard holds the frets in place? Originally Posted by Enlightened Rogue
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Not sure it matters a lot in real world measurable technical terms. Or maybe it does. I can be happy with whatever is on the fretboard if I like the guitar. And so many factors contribute to tone. But geeking out on guitars is great fun and if it inspires people to play, it's all good.
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This guy knows a thing or two about Tele tone... and I don't think he even mentions the fingerboard
Last edited by Peter C; 06-28-2024 at 05:27 PM.
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I don't know about tone, but I really dislike the feel of finished maple fingerboards. All my strats and teles (except for one) have rosewood boards.
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I tend to be in the "tone wood matters" camp,
but I do think that the more you put between the guitar and the audience the less it matters.
Maybe tone wood only really makes a difference when it's just your guitar, a cable, and a great amp and you're the audience.
I try to maintain at least a modicum of skepticism about "tone wood," but then I have a 2003 Gibson R9 Les Paul with a Brazilian rosewood fingerboard. It is a magical guitar, and the Brazilian rosewood may be a major factor.
Before I bought the R9 I also played a 2003 R7 gold top with a braz fingerboard and it may have been the best Les Paul I have ever played. I kick myself for not snatching it up. I could have had it for $1600 at the time.
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ok its not a scientific test..at best its a "three card monte" .. a different player would produce different results..a different amp would also.
fret wire height..fitting..Nut settings..there was a needed adjustment made on the roasted maple to eliminate fret buzz..telling me the other two
necks most likely had differences not noted.
as mentioned above..it should have been a hard tail and not a trem body.
as with most things with personal preference..the real experiment would be ..why do you like what you like??..
some like a BMW 3M type some a Ford Mustang 5.0..one is smooth and nice .. one is rough and nasty
for me..Rosewood on my 06 Les Paul is warm and bluesy ..on my Ibanez super-strat..roasted maple with boost..at least 5 distinct flavors..smooth to extra crunchy
and in the end..hmm..lets see..ahh yes..That Beck guy..Rosewood necks on his Strats..and he liked fast cars..M type or the 5.0..??
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Fender Jazzmaster was the first Fender guitar to have a Rosewood fingerboard.
The Fender Jazzmaster was originally designed in 1958 as a Jazz guitar, with a rosewood fingerboard, so it looked more like a traditional Jazz archtop guitar fingerboard.
Unfortunately, Leo Fender never asked any Jazz Guitarists about his Jazzmaster design ideas.
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I admit I'm shallow. I like the looks of wear on a maple fretboard, like Clapton's. It's the look of love!
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Many methodological testing failures as many have noted, and one glaring one that has not been mentioned but that in a neck swapping comparison really must be raised... absence of neck popping.
He mentioned the set-up was really good and I suspect the rosewood neck was popped, but the other two he put on were not (so the popped rosewood sounded best). Not fair to the other two!
The neck pop
When a neck is put on a guitar (when new at time of assembly or after having been removed or swapped), the knowledgeable person will do the neck pop after the strings are put on. This means tuning up to pitch, then loosening the neck plate screws evenly and slowly until the string tension overcomes the pocket/neck friction, at which the neck will move slightly, typically make a little pop, and seat itself against the body with the full pressure of the string tension... then you just re-tighten the neck plate screws.
This fixes a potential problem caused when you screw the neck on without the strings - little to no pressure of the neck against the body, or much worse a little air gap. That problem remains after the strings are put on and causes the guitar to sound "dead". That is solved by loosening under full string tension until the pop and re-tightening; something that everyone should do whenever the neck has been off the guitar, especially when doing a comparative test.
Countless "dead" guitars have been revived instantly by those in the know about this (who always carry a Philips screwdriver when hunting the shops for guitars).
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And can you do that, whilst the person playing, is also unaware of the neck material he’s currently using, as to not potentially bias the results? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The point about the food and colour of plate, is that there are so many variables and ones you’re not even aware of, that can effect your perception.
Wouldn’t the better test, be for me to convince you with utmost certainty, that I’ve made a recording with two different necks and you’re to determine which one is X and which is Y.
On giving me what you think is the result, a mix of X & Y assigned to differing sound clips, I then inform you that I lied and only used one neck?
I could guarantee if we ran this test, the majority of respondents would report hearing a difference.
There is no greater difference you can make to the sound of a guitar, than simply changing a set of strings.
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