Rhythms Complete Bugs Bower

[Mick-7]

This is not correct. It sounds a major 6 lower (reads a major 6 higher).

Yes, I corrected my error, thank you, however the also sax player in the video must not have transposed the exercises because Allen said his notes were a minor third higher than the notes that Allen played.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, I corrected my error, thank you, however the also sax player in the video must not have transposed the exercises because Allen said his notes were a minor third higher than the notes that Allen played.

Your corrected note is still wrong, Mick.

I wrote E, should have been Eb... Online sources say that the alto sounds a minor 3rd lower than concert pitch rather than a major 6th higher - correction: down minor 3(8va) = up Major 6th, so Allen is playing the exercise 1 octave higher than the alto player is.

Saxophone does not sound a minor third down or a major 6th up.

Saxophone reads a major 6th up.

That would mean that it sounds a major sixth lower. Though technically guitar also transposes the octave. So it sounds a minor third up from what Allen is playing.

Dig the video. Allen plays D G etc etc ... the sax plays F Bb etc etc

[Mick-7]

That would mean that it sounds a minor third lower. Though technically guitar also transposes the octave. So it sounds a major 6th up from what Allen is playing.

Yes, but if you listen to the video, the alto player is sounding the note G when the exercise has a concert note E written, etc., as Allen said, which means he's playing the exercise an octave lower than Allen is, right?

That would mean that it sounds a major sixth lower. Though technically guitar also transposes the octave. So it sounds a minor third up from what Allen is playing.

o.k., if the guitar is transposing up an octave, then I am officially confused....

[pamosmusic]

Yes, but if you listen to the video, the alto player is sounding the note G when the exercise has a concert note E written, etc., as Allen said, which means he's playing the exercise an octave lower than Allen is, right?

G is a minor third higher than E. Where are we getting an octave from?

EDIT: Oh ... I see you have something in the quote that isn't in my original post. Maybe something got weird when you copy-pasted?

Anyway ... here are two of the videos. Allens:

I'm working through Bugs Bowers Rhythms Complete. Since I'm taking video, I thought I would share them here.

... and the first from this one ...

Here's a video of a guy playing them with a swing feel.

Got to turn on that ole ear-bone.

The first note in Allen's is a D and the first note in the saxophone's is an F.

[AllanAllen]

Hey Peter, Mick is taking about the video for Ex 4. Where I start on E and the guy Starts on G.

But…. I think you sorted it? These horn transpositions take me a while to process.

[pamosmusic]

Hey Peter, Mick is taking about the video for Ex 4. Where I start on E and the guy Starts on G.

But…. I think you sorted it? These horn transpositions take me a while to process.

Yeah I see the quoted video now. Same dif.

Saxophone sounds down a major sixth.

Guitar sounds down an octave.

So you’re hearing the difference … the saxophone sounding up a minor third.

It’s pretty simple even if it’s annoying. The trick if you’re looking it up is to read carefully enough to know if they’re talking about transposing a concert pitch to write for saxophone, where a written sax pitch sounds, or what a saxophone should play if they’re transposing from written concert pitch.

It’s usually best to look for arranging info because they’ll always be talking about it the same way — what to write for saxophone if you want to hear a certain concert pitch. A saxophonist will be talking about it differently depending on what skill they’re talking about.

[AllanAllen]

So, if I understand this correctly, I’m playing in guitar key and say, a piano, would be an octave higher reading the same line.

[pamosmusic]

So, if I understand this correctly, I’m playing in guitar key and say, a piano, would be an octave higher reading the same line.

Yeah that’s it. The big band transpositions:

Piano/Trombone reads C4 and we hear C4

Guitar/Bass reads C4 and we hear C3

Trumpet and Soprano sax read C4 and we hear Bb3

Tenor Sax reads C4 and we hear Bb2

Alto Sax reads C4 and we hear Eb3

Bari sax reads C4 and we hear Eb2

Guitar is sort of an oddball because honestly arrangers just forget that guitar transposes. So guitar players should usually be pretty flexible on which octave they read in. Same with bass but it’s usually less confusion there for a number of reasons.

EDIT: added soprano and bari saxes

[charlieparker]

Yeah that’s it. The big band transpositions:

Piano/Trombone reads C4 and we hear C4

Guitar/Bass reads C4 and we hear C3

Trumpet reads C4 and we hear Bb3

Tenor Sax reads C4 and we hear Bb2

Alto Sax reads C4 and we hear Eb3

Guitar is sort of an oddball because honestly arrangers just forget that guitar transposes. So guitar players should usually be pretty flexible on which octave they read in. Same with bass but it’s usually less confusion there for a number of reasons.

Yeah, the way I understand it is that music is notated for most instruments so that the middle of an instruments range lies on a single clef. So if guitar was notated as it actually sounds we would be sitting somewhere between the bass and treble clefs.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, the way I understand it is that music is notated for most instruments so that the middle of an instruments range lies on a single clef. So if guitar was notated as it actually sounds we would be sitting somewhere between the bass and treble clefs.

Yeah that’s it. With the additional benefit for saxophones that each written pitch has the same fingering on the different instruments. Makes reading on a double much much easier.

Its one of those things that creates a lot of problems but probably solves a few more than it creates

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah that’s it. The big band transpositions:

Piano/Trombone reads C4 and we hear C4

Guitar/Bass reads C4 and we hear C3

Trumpet reads C4 and we hear Bb3

Tenor Sax reads C4 and we hear Bb2

Alto Sax reads C4 and we hear Eb3

Guitar is sort of an oddball because honestly arrangers just forget that guitar transposes. So guitar players should usually be pretty flexible on which octave they read in. Same with bass but it’s usually less confusion there for a number of reasons.

This is a very clear explanation. The topic can be confusing.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd add this.

Guitarists are generally taught that the note one ledger line below the staff is played on the A string, third fret.

That note is an octave below middle C on the piano.

If a guitarist wants to play a real middle C, he plays first fret B string.

So, at one point, I started wondering, when I'm reading single notes on a big band arrangement did the arranger account for that? That is, should I automatically transpose everything an octave up? Meaning, if the note is one ledger line below the staff, do I play first fret B string?

The answer turns out to be No. You assume the arranger wrote for the way guitar is taught in books like Mel Bay. You read the usual way.

[pamosmusic]

I'd add this.

Guitarists are generally taught that the note one ledger line below the staff is played on the A string, third fret.

That note is an octave below middle C on the piano.

If a guitarist wants to play a real middle C, he plays first fret B string.

So, at one point, I started wondering, when I'm reading single notes on a big band arrangement did the arranger account for that? That is, should I automatically transpose everything an octave up? Meaning, if the note is one ledger line below the staff, do I play first fret B string?

The answer turns out to be No. You assume the arranger wrote for the way guitar is taught in books like Mel Bay. You read the usual way.

Youve mixed something up here.

The second fret on the third string is only a m3 below sounding middle C (which you correctly identified as first fret on the second string) … so second fret on the third string is sounding A3.

So I’m not sure if you mean that guitarists are taught that the second ledger line below the staff is the second fret on the third string OR if it’s the note that sounds an octave plus below middle C. It can’t be both.

In my experience it’s standard these days to teach reading on the guitar the way it’s written for guitar, which is to say that A below the staff is read as the open fifth string. Which SOUNDS as A2 … so an octave plus a m3 below sounding middle C.

Thats the case in the Berklee methods and has been for a while. It’s the case in Hal Leonard. It’s always been that way (or at least since guitar has been reading standard notation) in classical methods and music.

Honestly Mel Bay is one of the only ones I haven’t used so not sure. But per my first point up there, a little clarification would be in order.

[Mick-7]

Yeah I see the quoted video now. Same dif.

Saxophone sounds down a major sixth. Guitar sounds down an octave.

So you’re hearing the difference … the saxophone sounding up a minor third.

Yes, this is what I thought, however it means that the alto player did not transpose the exercise to concert pitch, because if he had, his note G would match the E note that Allan played - but his E note would be an octave lower than Allen's. Is that correct?

[AllanAllen]

My question was the same as Mick’s. Directly related to the Ex4 videos. Am I playing in the correct written octave, and is the sax as well? I know there’s a key transposition so it’s not the same tone, but are the octaves right
or do I need to go lower?

[pamosmusic]

Okay so what’s happening now is that you’re both reading concert pitch and neither of you is transposing.

That means that Allen is sounding an octave low and the sax is sounding a major sixth low (which is a minor third higher than Allen).

If the sax were reading an actual transposition, then he should just be sounding the same note as is written in the concert pitch. So that means Allen would be sounding an octave lower than the sax reading a correct transposition.

If both of you were reading correctly transposed parts you would of course be sounding in unison because you’d be reading transpositions that represent the same sound.

This is not to say that Allen is reading it wrong. From what I’ve seen written, he’s reading it exactly as he should if the part were handed to him. Theyre rhythmic etudes so my guess is that they’re just written in keys that all instruments don’t mind (G C etc) and no one particular cares to make transposed editions. So everyone just focuses on the rhythm and reads the pitches on the page as they show up on their instrument.

[pamosmusic]

My question was the same as Mick’s. Directly related to the Ex4 videos. Am I playing in the correct written octave, and is the sax as well? I know there’s a key transposition so it’s not the same tone, but are the octaves right
or do I need to go lower?

You should never transpose an octave lower. Guitar sounds low, so if you’re worried that the part is in the wrong octave, you should try it an octave higher If someone had forgotten to transpose for you, then the part would be too low, not too high.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks Peter!

[pamosmusic]

No prob. It’s situations like this that make it seem like a huge pain in the ass. But 99% of the time it’s just plug and play.

You write in concert pitch and then transpose.

Or the sax player says A7 and you’re like … wtf …. Oooooooh you mean C7 got it.

So these sort of fringe situations where someone’s transposed and someone’s not or whatever are obnoxious but most of the time it’s just an additional step and not that bad.

[rpjazzguitar]

Typically, you don't need to transpose down.

But, now and then something will be so high on the guitar that either it's awkward to finger or it just doesn't sound good that high. And, then, you're looking for the place to change octave without sounding like you're changing octave.

You might think, well, nobody's going to write that in a guitar chart - and then you get handed a piano chart.

So, being able to play anything in any octave is a skill that might come in handy at some point, depending on what you're doing in music.

On another topic: I took a look at the Bower Bop book. Thanks to the poster -- I wasn't aware it existed. From what I saw (early part of the book) it isn't graded in difficulty. Clearly starts out more advanced than Rhythms Complete, which is graded in difficulty. So, for the player just trying to get into reading syncopation, start with Rhythms Complete.

[pamosmusic]

Typically, you don't need to transpose down.

But, now and then something will be so high on the guitar that either it's awkward to finger or it just doesn't sound good that high. And, then, you're looking for the place to change octave without sounding like you're changing octave.

You might think, well, nobody's going to write that in a guitar chart - and then you get handed a piano chart.

So, being able to play anything in any octave is a skill that might come in handy at some point, depending on what you're doing in music.

Okay fair point.

You should be able to transpose down, but that’s correcting a bad chart that is too high and not written 8va or compensating for a part written for another instrument.

but for what it’s worth … piano sounds higher, so usually the parts will be written low in the guitar range and you’ll need to transpose them up. Also piano charts are usually written 8va above three ledger lines. Or should be. Which means they probably are like … half the time. Ah well.

In general rhythm section charts are a mess. I guess best to be ready for anything.

[AllanAllen]

[AllanAllen]

[charlieparker]

Typically, you don't need to transpose down.

But, now and then something will be so high on the guitar that either it's awkward to finger or it just doesn't sound good that high. And, then, you're looking for the place to change octave without sounding like you're changing octave.

You might think, well, nobody's going to write that in a guitar chart - and then you get handed a piano chart.

So, being able to play anything in any octave is a skill that might come in handy at some point, depending on what you're doing in music.

On another topic: I took a look at the Bower Bop book. Thanks to the poster -- I wasn't aware it existed. From what I saw (early part of the book) it isn't graded in difficulty. Clearly starts out more advanced than Rhythms Complete, which is graded in difficulty. So, for the player just trying to get into reading syncopation, start with Rhythms Complete.

He has two bop books. Bop Duets and one just called Bop. Which were you referring to?

[rpjazzguitar]

He has two bop books. Bop Duets and one just called Bop. Which were you referring to?

I think it was duets.