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Though it's a very difficult format to sound good at, at least at my level, I have been trying playing in a guitar/bass/drum trio (I look forward to trying some of the suggestions here). There aren't many upright bassists around right now and I can't play two instruments at once so we have a bass guitarist instead.
Something I noticed yesterday was that the guitar and bass appeared to occupy the same space and the resulting sound was a bit messy, even when the bassist turned down a bit. They were using an ABG and admitted to liking to play higher up the neck.
One possible issue is that I tend to play mostly on the bottom four strings as, being a bassist, I am more used to them. Presumably I should work more on using the top four for soloing, melodies etc.? I've been trying this but it's slow going. Is there anything else I might do to improve the sound when rehearsing in this format?
Currently this is just for practice; we're a long way off being able to gig any of this stuff.
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11-07-2024 07:34 AM
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You're on the right path, listening to each other and adjusting is a huge part of playing.
Can I ask some foundational stuff, do you know the major scale across the neck? Learning that helped me map things out, I don't really think in scales anymore, I built up scales to get to arpeggios. I think Peter uses a different system with his students.
The other thing to do, once you know where the "good notes" are in isolation, ie scale exercises. Once you have that down, force yourself to go there when you play. After a while you won't be forcing yourself to move around, you'll just have an idea and play it where it's easy. Or you'll know D minor is coming in 4 bars and I want to be at the 10th fret for some higher notes, this bassist is playing right on top of me, and you can go up there.
I hope this makes sense. I started on bass too, I think it helped me a lot with guitar, since bass players tend to think about chords and need to know what 3rd and 7th to use. Whereas a rock guitarist can just powerchord on top of anything.
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Thanks for your reply, @AllanAllen.
I think I should be OK on the foundational stuff; I am an adequate amateur bassist (I can send an example gig video if you wish) and spent a lot of time on scale and arpeggio exercises. I'm not quite as solid on the top two strings of the guitar, and that major 3rd doesn't help, but I'm trying to focus there now. I'll have to try more scale exercises as you suggest.
Based on the advice of a local pro player I also tried learning rootless chords on the top 4 strings and moving them through various inversions; these have been quite useful. Moving between them and single note lines needs more work, though.
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Okay, what I wish someone told me early on. Spend like 15 minutes at most on scales every day, don't go all in and spend all your time on scales every day. It's great someone suggested you focus on chord inversions. Try to see how they fit into the scale fingerings. It'll all come together with time.
I'll attach the fingerings I use, in case you want a resource.
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My general rule when playing with a bassist is no 5th or 6th string in chords. I might still finger it, to keep my bearings, I just don't play it.
When soloing, not quite as big of a deal if the bassist is playing a good accompaniment. If they're getting up high a lot, might need to make an adjustment, or a suggestion.
What kind of stuff are you playing?
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Since you are a bassist now playing the guitar, you may be noticing what the bass player is doing a bit "more" than most guitarists? The best way to talk with other band members about what and how things are played is to record your sessions and listen to them together. If the bass plays high and the guitar plays low; yeah, you both need to experiment (record, listen, and discuss) to find what modifications clear up the sound - modifications including adjust of pitch range, tone quality, level, etc. You may find that the recording sounds clear even when it sounds messy when recording, or that just a little modification clears it up. In any event, you should strive to play freely all over the finger board to maximize your options... it's all about musical judgement.
For bands with more instrumentation the usual and customary path through a tune is to play the head (straight melody), then move through variations (melody with rhythmic/phrasing modifications) into improvisation (each soloist taking a round), then possibly extrapolation or deconstruction... in any event returning to the head to finish the tune.
With a trio, the guitarist is going to be playing pretty much continually, but depending on the tune, the lone guitar can't just solo through a lot of chorus rounds. I find that a lot of what I play is either very similar to chord melody, or just chord patterns that express the tune, introductions and endings, accompanying the bass or drums for occasional solos, octaves, and developing solos over just a few rounds of the tune. Rootless chords, chord patterns (where a series of 3 to 6 or more chords are used to express a progression change between two or more chords of the tune), soft accompaniment playing with thumb... all good things for a trio guitarist. You want a variety of ways to play.
It is easier in a trio to play "conditional style" tunes. For example, you can often play the same tune in multiple styles, finding songs that are convertible among Bossa, Latin, Blues, Jazz styles with just a change of vibe/focus. Similarly, in terms of managing time and progress through a set, or just making the audience happy, you can have a "conditional medley" which just means you have two endings for a tune; one is the proper end, the other is a transition into another tune.
The main challenge for a jazz trio guitarist is chords; you need a huge vocabulary of them, many multiple ways to play them, substitutions, know when to play lush vs minimal, know how to apply chord patterns, etc.
Here is an example of a four bar chord pattern for a jazz blues turnaround in G...
Get used to playing up the neck a bit.
Lead in
bII chord
(x) (15) (16) (15) (18) (x)
Turnaround
I chord
(x) (14) (14) (14) (15) (x)
VII chord
(x) (12) (13) (12) (15) (x)
VI chord
(x) (11) (11) (11) (12) (x)
V chord
(x) (9) (10) (9) (12) (x)
I chord
(x) (8) (9) (9) (8) (x)
VII chord
(x) (7) (6) (7) (8) (x)
bIII chord
(6) (x) (6) (5) (5) (x)
ii chord
(5) (x) (5) (5) (5) (x)
bVI chord
(x) (6) (5) (6) (6) (x)
V chord
(x) (5) (4) (5) (6) (x)
bII chord
(4) (x) (4) (3) (3) (x)
I chord
(3) (x) (2) (2) (3) (x)
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Thanks for the useful resources! I could definitely benefit from knowing more chords, though I find they don't tend to stick in my head very well unless I have worked them out, e.g. by the inversion process mentioned earlier or by moving a finger on one I already know (e.g. m7 -> m6). Even then it's a slow process.
To answer the question about what sort of thing I've been playing, other than the usual Autumn Leaves and Blue Bossa here are a few I can remember trying recently:
How Insensitive, Take Five, Juju, Ceora, Footprints, Lady Bird, Besame Mucho, Jeannine, All The Things You Are.
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Take Five has been requested at nearly every gig I've played in the last year. I really need to learn it.
The inversions and stuff will come with time. Work out Autumn Leaves in one spot on the neck using the inversions to stay locked in position. It's hard at first but it'll get easier. Also, once you start gigging you'll get bored of what you know naturally and expand your bag of tricks. 3 hours is a long time to play the same grips over and over.
It's a long game, just get a set together and start playing out ASAP. With the 11 songs you listed, you could do almost 2 sets already. Just add in some easy ones, Now's The Time, Satin Doll, Girl from Ipanema, All of Me, How High The Moon, Birks Works, It Don't Mean A Thing, Blue Moon... You'll be all set!
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I used to do a lot of playing in this format and I have some ideas
Originally Posted by gvurrdon
- play music that sounds good in a trio. Not everything does
- arrange the heads with a little bit of chordal stuff to fill it out. Think about what the bass will do.
- Dyads are fine. Better than fine
- good time makes everything sound fuller
- don’t feel you need to fill up the space
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Harder with electric bass I think than double
I think I’d play higher up than with double.
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I've certainly found it much easier to do "nut for dough" on an upright than a BG. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Also, looking around is much easier on the DB. One issue at our sessions has been the bassist staring at the neck or charts (practice should fix that).
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Chords sound good, on average, when the bass note is well below the rest of the chord.
If the bass is playing up the neck and you're on the bottom four strings, his notes may fall within yours. Meaning, his note may be higher than the lowest note in your chord. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I can see why you're thinking about it.
Might help a bit to make sure the two instruments have noticeably different timbres (via, for example, EQ or other processing), but that won't address the fundamental problem.
Guitar trio is hard, IMO. It takes a very good player to keep it interesting for a couple of sets. And, some great players have failed at this, IMO. One of the things that makes it a little easier is when the bassist is playing enough roots that you can depend on them. Then you can play three note voicings which can sound rich with the bass note.
Where to go next depends on how collegial you are with the bassist. If the two of you agree on the goal, then it's simply a matter of trying things different ways and finding your path.
Meanwhile, in the practice room you need to work on the top four strings. Lots of ways to do that, but a lot depends on what you have that can be foundational.
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If you don't mind I'd be interested to know if you have any examples where it hasn't worked. I've found a few threads here with recommendations already, but it would be interesting to compare. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I was thinking of two shows I've seen with very well known players in trio format -- which I found boring even though I loved the players. Obviously, just my taste. I think the guitar can be a limited voice so the player really has to do something special to make it consistently attention-grabbing.
I've done some trio gigs. The first thing that comes up for me is how much I'm going to try to mix in chords when playing melody or soloing. It's not something I practice much. Without the chords, the songs may sound too thin. With the chords, the songs can sound great, if the guitarist is up to the task. It's a challenge. Easier if you're playing background music than if you're playing a show.
Get Me Joe Beck is an album by a guitarist who was masterful at this.
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He has to play down low for the most part or you'll never have a decent sounding group because the bottom drops out of a trio when the bassist climbs high as a regular course of action. If you can get him to do that then you need to stay off his toes down low. It sounds like you more or less know what you need to do. The only other thing I can offer is learn to let it breathe. It's easy to get caught into overplaying in a 3 piece group, because there is nothing there. There is space in a good jazz trio. Good luck brother. 3 piece is the most challenging but will also develop your chops the quickest. Originally Posted by gvurrdon
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Thanks - I definitely need to have a chat with the bassist about this. Originally Posted by DawgBone
Good point about the space, but it's hard to resist trying to fill it...
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Space is your friend. Use it often.
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I think the point about space is really important. If you start with single notes, the first double stop will sound huge. I think, if you play a lot of notes, there's a risk that the ears of the audience will fatigue unless the notes are chosen really well. Originally Posted by DawgBone
As an aside, I usually play piano bass drums voice and guitar. When the pianist drops out, the band seems to die. But, if he isn't on the gig at all, so that nobody gets used to the sound of the piano, it's no big deal to have guitar as the only comping instrument.
I also think the tone of the guitar can make a significant difference. There's no one tone that works though, so I can't be more specific.
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There's space, and then there's s p a c e.
In a trio the guitar has much more harmonic freedom. Always relying on musical judgement, you may use fewer chords, but they may be quartal and other lush chords without fear of clashing.
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The sonic “layers” each instrument occupies in terms of frequencies are very important and often overlooked imho.I once was in a trio of electric bass, drums and gitar and it sounded very messy untill we figured out the drummer’s ride cymbal occupied too much sonic space. Once he brought a different cymbal that was less voluminous and with a different “main center frequency” everything sounded much better….
The probem you describe is much less with an upright bass, electric bass can indeed get in the way of guitar. But perhaps it’s alsoworth loking at the drummer’s cymbals…..
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Yes! I have played with drummers that damped their big cymbals with gel pads and tape so they "weren't as loud" but the actual effect was not so much to reduce their level, but to lower and intrude their frequency band into the mid-range. Undamping the top of a drum kit is a revelation in clarity. Originally Posted by Little Jay
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The electric bass and guitar having a similar tone and decay changes the feel of the group compared to upright and there's not much you can do about it. The bassist can try to finesse the length and tone of the notes to make it thud a little more compared to sustain but you mostly have to adapt to the different feel of the electric bass.
Of course, staying out of his register can help. Since you're still transitioning from knowledge of 4 string bass to becoming fluent with 6 strings on guitar, the most key tip is to base your reference for thinking or building ideas on the 1st string, since it's the same as the 6th string - E. Then you only need to learn the 2nd string. It will keep you playing higher, instead of basing everything low like you're used to.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 11-09-2024 at 10:29 PM.
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Agree about the cymbal. The ringing can fill the room in a large portion of the frequency spectrum. Good drummers watch out for that.
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Have you considered tuning the guitar in fourths? I know some bass players who do that.
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