Nylon Speed

[JimmyK]

I'm trying to increase speed on a nylon hybrid/classical guitar where obviously the "action" is not the same as my 335. I found a Gent on the internet who said to practice starting at the fifth fret on the 6th string and play simply 5th,6th,7th and 8th frets (A, Bb, B & C) for each string till getting to the first string "without" removing any fingers from the string you are on, until ready to move it up/down the fret board or to a new string. Hope that's clear!

I'd like to know if you think that will improve speed... It's not easy but it's fascinating. Seems like a tendency on the 6th and 5th strings to pull them towards the first string, rather than pressing toward the fret board, resulting in very poor tone. If nothing else it forces fingers to stay closer to the strings. Thanks.

Regards,

Jim

[ronjazz]

Sounds like you're not practicing slowly enough. Strive for tone and control, and ESPECIALLY for coordination between the two hands. While it is a little more difficult to play fast with a pick on the nylon strings, the real difficulty is in crossing strings, so the exercise you are doing is not ideal. Instead, try 1234 on adjacent strings (1 on 6, 2 on 5, 3 on 4, 4 on 3), strict alternate picking, and move across the fingerboard in a similar fashion. Slow and even, find a metronome setting that you can do it well at, work for 15 minutes, then increase the setting by a click or two each time you practice (say 60-63, for instance). In three weeks, you'll double your speed. Do this for your single string exercise as well, strict alternate picking, but move down towards the nut one fret each repetition, then back up to the 10th fret. Again, 15 minutes, move the metronome up a click each session. Let the metronome be your slave-driver, you' accomplish far more than you might have thought you could. Make sure you stay in rhythm as you're changing strings and positions.

[Runepune]

Though, at least some kinda speed is possible to achieve with plectrum on classical guitars it seems

[Daniel Kuryliak]

I'm trying to increase speed on a nylon hybrid/classical guitar where obviously the "action" is not the same as my 335. I found a Gent on the internet who said to practice starting at the fifth fret on the 6th string and play simply 5th,6th,7th and 8th frets (A, Bb, B & C) for each string till getting to the first string "without" removing any fingers from the string you are on, until ready to move it up/down the fret board or to a new string. Hope that's clear!

I'd like to know if you think that will improve speed... It's not easy but it's fascinating. Seems like a tendency on the 6th and 5th strings to pull them towards the first string, rather than pressing toward the fret board, resulting in very poor tone. If nothing else it forces fingers to stay closer to the strings. Thanks.

Regards,

Jim

Been playing jazz-classical for few years ...while that may be ONE method to improve fretting speeds, a better
method is to practice different scales in different keys, up and down until 'your fingers bleed".
If you are going all the way into classical spanish styled music then tremelo (fingers curled and released in succession
one after another and the sequence repeated very fast is essential for finger style classical pieces.

If you are using a pick on nylon strings (classical purists frown on this), then that's a different matter entirely but
it will be more difficult to pick nylon strings at the speed of finger style because nylon strings are NOT at the same
tension as steel or brass strings..even though you tune them to standard pitch (A-440).

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Though, at least some kinda speed is possible to achieve with plectrum on classical guitars it seems

Well there ARE exceptions to the rule in every case..bet he plays a mandolin with his picking style.
IMO he's technically playing very well..but his music is boring.

[enablement]

I found a Gent on the internet who said to practice starting at the fifth fret on the 6th string and play simply 5th,6th,7th and 8th frets (A, Bb, B & C) for each string till getting to the first string "without" removing any fingers from the string you are on, until ready to move it up/down the fret board or to a new string. Hope that's clear!

I think as far as building speed, scale/arpeggio work will be more productive. using a metronome, you can play a scale up and down in 1/4 notes, then 8ths, then triplet 8ths, then 16ths without stopping. you can also play scales using dotted rhythms

there's a book called pumping nylon by scott tennant which has a whole bunch of technical exercises for nylon string guitar, he includes some exercises like what you're describing for developing hand independence and slur strength

cheers

[mr. beaumont]

You don't mention if you're playing with a pick or fingers...

Why does the action have to be high?--it's a hybrid, not a concert classical...

[Runepune]

Well there ARE exceptions to the rule in every case..bet he plays a mandolin with his picking style.
IMO he's technically playing very well..but his music is boring.

Yeah, I didn't post for musical reasons

I don't really find them harder to play. The one thing I find awkward is the string spacing, but I bet a classial guitarist would say the same about steel stringed things.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Yeah, I didn't post for musical reasons

I don't really find them harder to play. The one thing I find awkward is the string spacing, but I bet a classial guitarist would say the same about steel stringed things.

or even going to extremes...think about the time it takes to tune these..and what position would he have to be
in to play the bottom one?

[JimmyK]

Yes, I am playing with the pick and yes the action of this Godin LaPatrie CW Hybrid is high. This guitar should probably be played with fingers but my nails absolutely refuse to cooperate therefore I've moved on and am contemplating using a thumb pick too. Obviously there isn't a pick guard, so in time this instrument will probably look like Willie Nelson's guitar. btw the guitar has a nitrocellulose finish and subject to "the burn".

A beautiful sounding guitar (acoustic/electric) that seems to improve every year even unplugged. Some challenges here plus good responses too. Always looking to put another "Brick in the Wall"

Regards,

jim

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Hi Jim;
Congrats on the acquisition of your Godin La Patrie..a true Canadian classic.

Yes, your guitar needs to be played with fingers..
but Mr Guitar (Chet Atkins) played his nylon classics with thumb and normal plectrum picks....check out this
rendition of him playing one of my favorites..Concierto de la Aranjuez by Rodrigo.....

What I would suggest Jim is that you get some nylon classical lessons from a good guitar teacher
that is familiar with classic guitar techniques..you will be glad you did as you will learn easily
that an classic finger style arpeggio is much easier to control with 4 fingers and a thumb..
ie : Malaguena . Not to mention rasquedos (a flamenco term to release the fingers curled in
on fell swoop on the strings and other techniques..slurs etc..

Here is a true classical to jazz guitarist (one of my favourites) Charlie Byrd..

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Yes, I am playing with the pick and yes the action of this Godin LaPatrie CW Hybrid is high. This guitar should probably be played with fingers but my nails absolutely refuse to cooperate therefore I've moved on and am contemplating using a thumb pick too. Obviously there isn't a pick guard, so in time this instrument will probably look like Willie Nelson's guitar. btw the guitar has a nitrocellulose finish and subject to "the burn".

A beautiful sounding guitar (acoustic/electric) that seems to improve every year even unplugged. Some challenges here plus good responses too. Always looking to put another "Brick in the Wall"

Regards,

jim

Forgot to comment on this. Nylon strings by their nature require high action to get the best tone and vibrations when the string is fretted. Pretty much all nylon string classics have high action and that is
a good thing to get the most of the tone from your classic guitar. If you cut down the nut and the bone saddle to lower the action similar to electric playing styles..the guitar will sound "dead".

Willie Nelson, what can we say. He abused his old guitar so much it developed a mouse hole..LOL!
(I apologize about the "cheesy attempt" at humour..no..maybe not..we get too serious in life)

Interesting guitar player. Willie Nelson.unorthodox in many ways, but he is popular with some
fans...as long a he doesn't attempt to sing.

Constant strumming with a guitar pick over the decades has worn a large sweeping hole into the guitar's body near the sound hole—the N-20 has no pick-guard since classical guitars are meant to be played finger style instead of with picks. Its soundboard has been signed by over a hundred of Nelson's friends and associates, ranging from fellow musicians to lawyers and football coaches. The first signature on the guitar was Leon Russell's, who asked Nelson initially to sign his guitar. When Nelson was about to sign it with a marker, Russell requested him to scratch it instead, explaining that the guitar would be more valuable in the future

Attachment 9211Attachment 9212

But surprisingly, when Willie leaves us someday, somebody, somewhere, will pay thousands of dollars for his old beat up classic..just because it was Willys.

[Inky]

I also play with a nylon stringed hybrid. It's a Taylor, and I find the action considerably better than traditional classical guitars, mainly because the fretboard is narrower. Also, the action is about 25% lower (about 3 mm). Also, I play finger style, being originally classically trained. I can't really comment on the difference in action from a nylon versus a steel string traditional jazz guitar because I've never own a steel string so haven't spent much time on one. But I want to and see it in my future soon.

All that being said, I'm not really sure that there would be a huge disadvantage in speed by using a nylon stringed guitar. The exercise you originally described is sometimes called a spider exercise. There are many examples on youtube. I do it daily. I also do exercises from Pumping Iron, and scales and scales, and more scales. I probably spend at least a half an hour a day on this routine. In Scott's book there are many exercises for improving speed.

Personally, I don't really focus much on speed. I know I will never be incredibly fast, and there is just way too much great music out there that doesn't require speed. But speed is definitely possible. Check out Baden Powell.

My $.02
Ken

[Daniel Kuryliak]

All that being said, I'm not really sure that there would be a huge disadvantage in speed by using a nylon stringed guitar. The exercise you originally described is sometimes called a spider exercise. There are many examples on youtube. I do it daily. I also do exercises from Pumping Iron, and scales and scales, and more scales. I probably spend at least a half an hour a day on this routine. In Scott's book there are many exercises for improving speed.

Personally, I don't really focus much on speed. I know I will never be incredibly fast, and there is just way too much great music out there that doesn't require speed. But speed is definitely possible. Check out Baden Powell.

I don't think that blazing speed is what is required in playing a nylon string classic, but accuracy in expressing the best tone (timbre) out of the nylon strings with the nails. (yes you have to grow long nails on the right picking hand, and keep the nails on the fretting hand very trimmed.

If you grow the nails on the picking hand long enough and reinforce the nails with clear nail polish, the nail forms a very effective and individual pick for each of the four fingers, while the thumbnail picks at the bass strings in an arpeggiom or individual chord fashion in conjunction with the fingers.

That is the way I learned, and while I did have a teacher in my early days, I used the Mel Bay
Classic Guitar Method for the basics and sheet music (or books) for the pieces I was interested in.

One of the first pieces I learned was ROMANZA and Malgenua, because of the thumb picking the bass string while the fingers provided the tremelo,which is an important component of Spanish Classical, Flamenco, or Classical or even fusion Jazz-Classical like Charlie Byrd played back in the 60s..Jazz Samba.

There are exercises for improving tremelo speeds. I did practise scales as well, but not as much as you are saying, because to me playing jazz-classical fusion doesn't require blazing shredder scale speeds. Yes, there are some segments in classical notation that have some scales and even 64th notes, but for the most part accuracy in following the written music and interpreting the emphasis on the way the music is supposed to be played is more important (IMO) than fingers flying all over the fretboard to show technical prowess in playing at speed.

Malaguena is an excercise in thumb vs finger tremelo techniques with the melody juxtaposed
between the two parts..rasquedos and slurring..trills..etc..

[Daniel Kuryliak]

and of course asturias..

I love her finesse and grace as she picks off that harmonic at the coda. She knows her instrument
very well...she can close her eyes and her fingers at the fret board know where to go and
her fingers and thumb picking the strings articulating smoothly provide the tone that is pure
and unadulterated. This is finesse at it's finest example.

[JazzinNY]

To the OP: I know that exercise as the "caterpillar." That's from a book by Steve McKay, where I learned to do the basic (and not so basic) folk/pop chords.

The exercise did a lot for me in terms of finger control and independence, but it wasn't really for speed.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

I think as far as building speed, scale/arpeggio work will be more productive. using a metronome, you can play a scale up and down in 1/4 notes, then 8ths, then triplet 8ths, then 16ths without stopping. you can also play scales using dotted rhythms

there's a book called pumping nylon by scott tennant which has a whole bunch of technical exercises for nylon string guitar, he includes some exercises like what you're describing for developing hand independence and slur strength

cheers

Walking -pumpin' nylon by Scott Tennant

Like his background with the bench press..LOL!..gotta build up those arm muscles as well as the fingers.

He makes some good points here for basic exercises. Whatever you want to call them, caterpillar, spider,
finger-brain co-ordination..the key point here is that you need to develop both fret fingering techniques
snapping those slurs, walking the bass strings, trills, tapping, appogiaturas (grace notes), glisssandos,
hammering on/off and finger stretch for the most difficult 4 or even 5 fret stretches from the 1st fret, you do need to keep exercising the fingers.

Then there are also right hand finger picking techniques, when you can play Mason William's "Classical Gas"
like Tommy Emmanuel here....you have "arrived" my friend.

[ronjazz]

Flamenco guitars have very low action, and it is unnecessary for classical guitars to have high action, especially if played with a plectrum. In fact, a low action makes for a better sound when played with the pick.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Flamenco guitars have very low action, and it is unnecessary for classical guitars to have high action, especially if played with a plectrum. In fact, a low action makes for a better sound when played with the pick.

Your opinion of course, and I will respect that on this forum.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.co...t=64845#topic4
go to #4
At the 12fret, the nominal is 3mm +/- 0.5mm for the high e AND 4mm +/- 0.5mm at
the low e.
Translated from mm to inches; 3mm = 1/8" 4mm= 5/32 5mm= 13/64

[Runepune]

Your opinion of course, and I will respect that on this forum.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.co...t=64845#topic4
go to #4
At the 12fret, the nominal is 3mm +/- 0.5mm for the high e AND 4mm +/- 0.5mm at
the low e.
Translated from mm to inches; 3mm = 1/8" 4mm= 5/32 5mm= 13/64

Just measured mine. That's exactly the action I ended up preferring Allows you to dig in and achieve great dynamic range.

As for plectrum vs fingers, I actually prefer the sound of a thick plectrum over nails on classical. Warmer and fuller. I did this little recording a while ago, though I later found another plectrum that both sounds and plays better (Wegen Big City).

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Just measured mine. That's exactly the action I ended up preferring Allows you to dig in and achieve great dynamic range.

As for plectrum vs fingers, I actually prefer the sound of a thick plectrum over nails on classical. Warmer and fuller. I did this little recording a while ago, though I later found another plectrum that both sounds and plays better (Wegen Big City).

That is a very nice full sound from the classic especially directly mic'ed.

[JimmyK]

Thanks to Everyone for your Candor thus far.

There are a lot of great suggestions/comments and I fully intend to implement in my daily efforts. Specifically, the comment about scales, scales and more scales (Inky and others). Lackadaisical would best describe my scalar regimen. And Nails; I am envious of people who can grow them. A teacher suggested acrylic nails, that's not a viable option.

I'm going to put this thread as a "shortcut" on my desktop so it can be read often.

Regards,

Jim

[enablement]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss fake nails. you can head down to your local drug store and buy a box of fake nails, something like this

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...ed=0CG8Q8wIwAQ

you can then attach them using super glue (fairly permanent) or glue dots, not permanent at all, i.e.. remove them at the session. you can shape them using an emory board just like real nails. glue dots aren't hard on your skin in the same way super glue is

here's what i mean by glue dots

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...d=0CI0BEPMCMAU


In my experience, glue dots will hold the fake nail firm for all but the hardest playing (eg, flamenco thumb). if you shape them right, you can get a sound that is fairly indistinguishable from real nails. I should mention I've only used fake nails on nylon string. i don't know if the glue would hold on higher tension strings like archtops or flattops

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Growing nails on the picking hand is always tough if you do any kind of work that will break or split them.
As you mentioned, flamenco players have to develop a good thumb nail as that is very essential to their
sound, and the flamenco guitar although the same "venus de milo" shape as as classic guitar, is very different
in woods and construction and tone.

Carlos Montoya Flamenco Master, (one of my favorites from the 60s) (audio is distorted, but watch his thumb nail and percussive rasqueado technique and at the end...a well executed tremelo technique
where his thumb sweeps through the individul bass strings in a rhythmic pattern.

and the rasqueado pattern (very hard on normal (not reinforced) nails

[flugel]

High tension strings will help you, but playings chords will be harder, though.