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Thought I'd start a general thread on the open position of the guitar. My experience is as follows:
Like most guitarists, I learned the typical open position major, minor and dominant 7th chords ("cowboy chords") fairly early on. Also took some lessons in my early teens using a Happy Traum method (comparable to Mel Bay), so I learned some basic note reading in the open position in a few keys. Used open strings in the typical fashion playing blues and a little rock throughout my teens and early 20s. Studied classical in my late 20s, using and reading in the open position, again as is typical of classical players and students. But in jazz studies, I've tended to avoid open strings and especially reading in the open position. Most recently I've been reading and studying open position stuff out of the Mel Bay and Berklee Modern Method books. I find some specific areas in which I'm weak as I do this.
It seems the open position is used heavily and taken for granted in most styles (rock, blues, folk, country, bluegrass, classical, etc.) of guitar playing. But yet jazz players tend to avoid it. Many exceptions of course, especially genre-bluring players such as Bill Frisell. In The Advancing Guitarist Mick Goodrick makes some very interesting comments about the open position, noting that method books start a student there but quickly move on in favor of position playing. He compares this approach to training wheels on a bicycle. He then questions the approach, noting the it is a "fascinating area unto itself" and "great preparation" for position playing if "examined in great detail."
Not sure I'll ever examine it in great detail, but revisiting the open position in more than a glancing manner seems to be helping my playing.
What do you think? What's your experience of the open position? Training wheels? Worth serious study? Use it much in actual playing situations?
Matt
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03-01-2015 02:45 PM
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Open strings have "a sound" to them. They can be used creatively, for sure.
For many jazz applications i want the most even timbre between notes, and on the guitar, that lies between say the third and tenth fret or so.
A jazz player has to know the whole neck, "open position" included, no exceptions.
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As someone said to me about playing up at the end of the neck.... "You paid for those notes you should use them." The open string are the same they are bought and paid for and have their own unique sound to incorporate into your playing.
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So have you guys spent some time shedding in the open position?
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What do you mean exactly?
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I think the problem with open position is how key specific it is. When you're trying to learn how to be able to play any tune - including standards with multiple modulations per tune - in any key at the drop of a hat, it pays to invest in a system that is well-suited to those demands.
Open position is great for guitar-centric music - blues, folk, rock - and music that can be carefully arranged - classical pieces, modern fingerpicking stuff - but for jazz it's IMO not worth significant investment because you end up never using it in a typical combo setting.
Some people use one or two open strings when the key allows (Metheny does this a lot), and other guys seem to have arranged parts that use the open strings that they then drop once the soloing starts. I've never found the time investment in it to pay off much down the road for me in jazz, although it's essential to know if you want to play authentically in other styles.
To me the sound of jazz guitar is almost synonymous with the sound of "no-open-strings".
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depends on the key and the tone I am looking for.
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I do some things with open strings but not much of it is jazz. Though I've run across some Herb Ellis lines where he throws in an open string I would not have expected. (And like Evan, I make a point to learn the line without the open string so I can move it to other keys.)
There's another aspect to this question. For me, anyway. The open position (and F at the first fret) is the hardest position of the guitar to play in because it requires the fretting arm to extend away from the body more than any other position requires. Frankly, I'm surprised so many teachers start beginners there. The guitar is much easier to play around the 8th fret than it is in open position. I should think that would be a better place for beginners to start. But, hey, I'm not a real teacher, so what do I know?
Someone posted a video of Sid Jacobs talking about trying to finger an E and B note together and he was trying several things which didn't satisfy him. He said he was surprised (and a little embarrassed) how long it took him to realize he could play them as open strings! His point was that as much as we guitarists like closed positions so that we can move things around, open strings are a feature of the instrument and one we should not ignore.
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Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough. What I'm asking is how much (if any) and what type of practice different players have invested in the open position. And the follow-up question, what have they gotten out of it. I assume everyone here knows the basics. But how many have spent weeks, months or years working on open position stuff, for example the stuff in the methods I've mentioned (Mel Bay, Leavitt/Berklee). I agree with the stuff you guys have stated so far about the ease of playing, functionality, timbral quality and movability found in the middle of the neck. Just wondering if anyone has also found some benefits to spending substantial practice time down by the nut.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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When playing music centered largely around triads, the open strings are most useful as a root, 5th and 3rd.
Secondarily they also have some potential as a scale tones.
When playing music with extended harmonies, an open string can be a:
1, b2/b9, 2/9, b3/#9, 3, 4/11, b5/#11, 5, b6/b13, 6/13, b7, 7
There seems to be some potential there.
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A lot of traditional jazz is in flat keys. Once you get a little past the key of F, it's kind of like what's the point? "Open" ceases to exist. It becomes first position, closed anyway. Not as much music in sharp keys when you're dealing with horns and keys?
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You practice everywhere. How can a jazz player not know the whole neck inside out?
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Yeah. Not saying to skip it. Just posing a guess as to why it's less commonly used in jazz.
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Again, looking for eveness in tone. Open strings stand out.
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It's age-old dilemma. There are too many things a jazz musician should know inside and out. Certainly you can create a solo masterpiece in any key with no open notes. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But yeah, I'm learning the open fingerlings for every note pattern that I learn. Every pattern will have a key that works with open strings, and I learn those as well as the rest.
I suppose it's personal preference, but I find guitaristic quirks add a lot of interest to solos. Contrasting open tones against closed tones sounds cool to me.
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Knowing the fretboard is not negotiable.
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In a clinic, Pat Martino said that when he plays in "open position" he actually slides his hand down and "fingers" the open string with his index, treating it like any other fret. I can't remember who he said taught him that. The idea was to make that position the same as all the others if a lick lead you down there.
I spent some time working on that after hearing it, and can appreciate the benefit. It's hard to do on a guitar with a normal headstock, and explains why he asked Gibson to make his tiny headstock on his model.
I don't know that I've ever actually seen him do it live.
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As has been already stated. Knowing the entire fingerboard is primary. I started my guitar life with a big dose of Doc Watson and that man could mine a lot of music out of the open position. I still find the use of open strings as drones or pedal tones an interesting exercise an effective technique. As a singer as well as guitarist I find for certain genres of song the use of a capo very effective. Basically playing open position chords etc with the capo functioning as a movable nut. As I advanced as a guitarist I used to pride myself on never needing a capo as I could comfortably handle the keys by being proficient on the entire fingerboard. As I've aged I've strived to be a little less strident about such matters. The open position is just one more color on your palette, why would you not want to use it?
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I hate playing in open position, but my instructor wants me to read in open position, so whatever.
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I've seen him do it. He actually touches the strings behind the nut, as though it were a fret. With his dark tone and staccato articulation -- it's pretty seamless when he does it. Originally Posted by ecj
Last edited by M-ster; 03-02-2015 at 02:22 PM.
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This is true. However, many jazz guitarists have a "blues in G" in their set. (Wes even had a blues in D....) Joe Pass includes a nice one (perhaps called "Intro Blues") in one of his book/DVD combos. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Joe Pass and Herb Ellis did a blues duet in G. YouTube hosts many performances of it by guitar duos. (Here's one below.) I add this not because it has lots of open strings---it doesn't---but because perhaps you, Matt, might have a guitar student interested in this. It is tasty, fun, yet not overwhelming.
And here is something a little more challenging, Joe and Herb teaming up on "Joe's Blues." This track has bass and drums. Their interplay is amazing.
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That sounds patently ridiculous to me. Ever see Ralph Towner play? Check out YT videos. Notes are where you find them - all over the fret board. The point is to choose where you want to articulate your lines. Originally Posted by ecj
Jay
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I mostly play bass these days. I have noticed that upright players use the open position all the time. Fretted Bass guitar players tend to use the positional playing method (like guitar players). The open strings and harmonics allow for intonation correction, so the position is used all the time by upright players.
I've studied James Jamerson a lot who applied open position playing from the upright to the fretted electric. Some of his best lines are in a key like Eb where the open strings are used chromatically.
Far from being training wheels, I think open position playing is much more difficult than playing most stuff higher on the neck. There is too much in the open position that is not transferable to the other areas of the guitar neck. I would say if you want to sound original you should play in the open position because nobody else does it. It will be a lot of work. Only those very creative individuals always looking for new sounds will attempt it (like Frisell).
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While it is true that the general tendency of open strings is to ring with greater abandon than a fretted note,
there is no better position to practice tonal balance, equalizing the differences of resonance and controlling
which notes emphasized. This is just another aspect of technique, but I suppose one could mostly avoid
playing open strings if you wanted to. The low E is the only open string note for which there is no other alternative.
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As others have pointed out, the traditional jazz keys don't particularly lend themselves to playing in the "open" position.
But for chord-melody stuff, I use open strings all the time when they fit in. For example, to add a drone for chords to move against or to add an interesting jump in register to a melody line. Or as a grace note to imply a widely spaced interval. I love the rich sound of chords voiced low on the neck.
The guitar is such a wonderful instrument because of all the stuff it can do that is difficult or impossible on other instruments. I want to use everything the guitar offers, open notes, harmonics, string bending, different tones, etc.
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