Don't lay down fingers in order to play notes on two adjacent strings?

[sgcim]

This is an interesting idea I recently read about in regards to single-note playing (not chords).
"When you lay fingers down, the notes run together, the sound gets muddy, but worse, you have grounded yourself in that area.
The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when they are in an arched position, compared to when they are flattened down. Keep fingers on their tips."

Another similar idea was, "Don't use the same finger to play two consecutive notes... Using a different finger for each note not only achieves greater speed, but more importantly, produces notes that are cleaner and more distinct from each other."

This would seem to mostly relate to fourths, but also major thirds on the G and B strings. You could even relate it to major sixths, when you skip a string, or major 9ths when you skip two strings.

Does anyone here use this type of fingering technique?
Does it make a difference in developing greater speed when you finger lines like that?
Is the sound of notes (in this case fourths) running into each other and sounding muddy that unmusical sounding that you should adopt a fingering method like this?
Do you use this technique when playing a head like "Freedom Jazz Dance"?
Isn't this technique a little confining and impractical when you take into account that we only have four fingers to fret notes with?

These questions must be answered! The very fate of mankind depends on this!

[pauln]

This is an interesting idea I recently read about in regards to single-note playing (not chords).
"When you lay fingers down, the notes run together, the sound gets muddy, but worse, you have grounded yourself in that area.
The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when they are in an arched position, compared to when they are flattened down. Keep fingers on their tips."

I agree about keeping the hand and fingers arched (and the thumb behind the neck). The only thought here is to not lose left fingers muting of unwanted strings.

Another similar idea was, "Don't use the same finger to play two consecutive notes... Using a different finger for each note not only achieves greater speed, but more importantly, produces notes that are cleaner and more distinct from each other."

This would seem to mostly relate to fourths, but also major thirds on the G and B strings. You could even relate it to major sixths, when you skip a string, or major 9ths when you skip two strings.

Using the same finger to move a fourth (from string to string at the same fret) vs using two different fingers? Or do you mean not rolling the single finger but having that single finger play the first string and then lift and move to the next string?
I'm pretty sure you are not wanting to use the first and second fingers to play side-by-side same fret fourths on adjacent strings... that would kind of squirrel up most folk's conceptions of fingering, right?

Anyway, I hold both like a double stop with the finger loading more firmly the string I play first, then roll the load to the other string as I play that. Left hand has never been a source of muddiness doing this or anything else; because of my picking technique.

I ignore generally the "different finger for each note" idea; no slurs? no slides, no sideslip grace notes? no tied notes?

Does anyone here use this type of fingering technique?
Does it make a difference in developing greater speed when you finger lines like that?
Is the sound of notes (in this case fourths) running into each other and sounding muddy that unmusical sounding that you should adopt a fingering method like this?
Do you use this technique when playing a head like "Freedom Jazz Dance"?
Isn't this technique a little confining and impractical when you take into account that we only have four fingers to fret notes with?

These questions must be answered! The very fate of mankind depends on this!

I see lots of suggestions that only some specific techniques enable the development and achievement of speed, accuracy, clarity, etc. Those claims are demonstrably incorrect when I look and listen to others' playing, including my own.

There are lots of things (like learning something new) that may seem to hinder development - for a while; but the development of technique is all about overcoming problems of playing mechanics, and there are many pathways, each of which instance may be found in top guitarists.

I think the majority of technique is in the right hand, and that there comes a point in every guitarist's life when he begins to shift his attention and efforts from the left hand to the right hand... this is a special moment that coincides with having internalized many good things and having noticed that one's vision now sees the horizon as having moved further away...

[mikostep]

First one is something I use mostly. But, sometimes you want the effect it produces and sometimes you don't. For bebop you mostly want this, so...
The other one you mentioned is pretty stupid rule. Listen to masters like Benson, Martino etc. They have a lot of same finger use on the same string. Try double mambo like Fm to Gm starting in 5 string - f, ab, c, eb - d, g, bb, d. Half step between eb and d on 3 string is played with first finger.
Benson simetimes plays 4 or 5 notes with same finger on the same string. It's a matter of phrasing and it can't be achieved if played with different fingers.

Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk

[lawson-stone]

Sounds like some dogma from classical guitar?

[Drumbler]

Tell it to this guy...

[ragman1]

I don't listen to stuff like this. If I need to lay 'em down, I lay 'em down!

[joe2758]

i use separate fingers where I can, but I don't take it to any extreme. I do have about a 3 year experience with serious classical study, that could have affected it

[paulkogut]

I'm always suspicious of 'systems', I understand folks' desire to codify in hopes of simplifying, but it ends up being a complex instrument no matter what you do....The good news is the built-in complexities of the guitar give one lots of opportunity for nuance and expression.


That's an interesting set of rules. When I run across something like that, my attitude is "What would happen if I played like that? Does it make certain lines or ideas easier? Does it make other things I used to do more difficult? Does it make me sound more like player X, or less like playerY? " (I have to thank my mentor Mick Goodrick for instilling and encouraging such attitudes)

If you're intrigued, check out what happens if you play like that for a while. Nothing says you can't use those ideas on one line, and play the next with a Wes Montgomery inspired fingering. If you mess around with different ideas enough, you might find you're thinking less about a 'system', and more about having a body of knowledge and experience from which to make the best choice for your musical expression. Sometimes playing an adjacent-string perfect 4th with 2 separate fingers ends up being the way to go, it may not be the first choice in most circumstances but it's good to know it's there.

PK

[Jonah]

Both are very classical guitar techniques and they are really effecient for classical repertoire on nylon strings..
one of the techniques taught early on classical guitar is 'mute slide' when you make slide technically but there is not 'sound of slide'.
It shows how much attention is drawn to the accuracy of articulation because these nuances are really important.

But are they really that much important for jazz or rock? With its kitchy agressive phrasing?

This is an interesting idea I recently read about in regards to single-note playing (not chords).
"When you lay fingers down, the notes run together, the sound gets muddy, but worse, you have grounded yourself in that area.
The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when they are in an arched position, compared to when they are flattened down. Keep fingers on their tips.

"

It is true
but it is not always efficient for electric guitar of for jazz technique.. besides it can be also a way to damp strings on electric guitar.
I play both ways when needed.

I think something close to Bill Frisell left hand.. it is not classical but he frets mostly with tips. I think it corresposd to he musical style.. very precise and acurate phrasing and touch.
He plays with his left hand as if he is an organ player..
Julian Lage too

Another similar idea was, "Don't use the same finger to play two consecutive notes... Using a different finger for each note not only achieves greater speed, but more importantly, produces notes that are cleaner and more distinct from each other."

This would seem to mostly relate to fourths, but also major thirds on the G and B strings. You could even relate it to major sixths, when you skip a string, or major 9ths when you skip two strings.

[/QUOTE]


As I began from classical I always used this efficient technique... and later it took me some time to convince myself and teach myself to play slides and adjacent strings with the same finger...

why? Because I do not always want notes to be clean and distinct)))

eventually I began to mix it...

All in... it is actually fantastic feeling when you know you can play both ways

[sgosnell]

It seems to me that most 'systems' come from the school of "This is the way I do it, so it must be the only correct way, therefore everyone should do it this way".

[lawson-stone]

Though I'm skeptical of systems, and especially tend to (over) react to the imposition of classical norms on steel-string, electric, improvisational forms, still I'll say I wish when I started out someone made me use the tips of my LH fingers more consistently. I have a problem with part of my slanted finger pressure hitting the adjacent string and producing a ghost note. If I had developed using the tips more, I'd not have that problem. I keep thinking I should drill on this, but after 60 years on the instrument, I don't know if I can change.

I also found John...errr.. Robert Conti's simple rules on fingering to be helpful too. Not a system so much as a couple basic ideas that work pretty nicely for me.

[Jonah]

It seems to me that most 'systems' come from the school of "This is the way I do it, so it must be the only correct way, therefore everyone should do it this way".

Not quite.. systems come from the people who have gift to analyze, generalize and systemize..

Usually there is a great personality behind every school... and usually all he did he developed fo himself to express his own personality. When it si inherited it is getting scienticized - - which is actually wrong because it si not science... and it functions as 'an objective truth' for a while untill another great personality comes...

[MarkRhodes]

I also found John Conti's simple rules on fingering to be helpful too. Not a system so much as a couple basic ideas that work pretty nicely for me.

Er, did you mean Robert Conti, Lawson???

[joe2758]

I also found John Conti's simple rules on fingering to be helpful too. Not a system so much as a couple basic ideas that work pretty nicely for me.

"the best coffee in town!" just teasing I'm sure everyone knows what you meant

[Jazzstdnt]

The answer is - it depends.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Another similar idea was, "Don't use the same finger to play two consecutive notes... Using a different finger for each note not only achieves greater speed, but more importantly, produces notes that are cleaner and more distinct from each other."

Who is this from?

[fep]

Who is this from?

Not sure who he is referring to but Peter Sprague wrote this:

The fingers and the whole hand position have much more strength when they are in an arched position, compared to when they are flattened down. Keep fingers on their tips. 2) Don’t use the same finger to play two consecutive notes. This idea is a lot like the concept of alternating your pick direction in the right hand for the reasons of minimizing your efforts and developing speed. Likewise, using a different finger for each note not only achieves greater speed, but more importantly, produces notes that are cleaner and more distinct from each other.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok. This kind of thing is largely personal. I would read it as basically the author's "way".

Like Benson picking or anything else, they aren't restrictions or rules, certainly not consensus (too many great players do the opposite), but they are a way that one player has come up with that are important to would-be students etc.

In addition to what others have said re classical, nut width has a lot to do with this approach and whether or not it is helpful or even practical. Classical nut width almost NECESSITATES it, and wider "fingerstyle" nut widths at least make it viable. Traditional steel string widths almost make it problematic IMO.

Rolling same finger to a different string is a valuable technique to experiment with at some point, quite distinct from a pure barre. Many players get a lot of mileage out of it. I can't imagine not using it.

There's a whole separate conversation re "ideal/preferred fingerings" vs being able to play anything everywhere. They aren't opposing philosophies/approaches, and they each have their place. Equal parts of a balanced view IMO...

[DanielleOM]

The Andrew Greene Techniques book suggest separate fingers for notes on adjacent strings. I think you have more control when it comes to the release of the first note played. Sounds cleaner to me.

I certainly cannot play 3 quarter notes in a row on adjacent strings and cleanly release each note by laying a finger down and trying to roll it.

[mr. beaumont]

I think it's not a bad idea to default to the cleaner technique, but there's certainly a time and place for a good 'ol finger roll.

[coolvinny]

I use a mixture, but I do recall an early teacher telling me not to lay the string down. I remember taking a Skype lesson with a pro years earlier and him telling me "you've got to bar man!" but he was referring to a particular chord where I was doing something with my pinky and ring fingers.

I've looked at the Andrew Green materials and I'm aware of his stance on this - at the end of the day, he's just one guy making suggestions.

Consider that most teachers will say to use all four fingers of the fretting hand (personally, I do) but then you've got Wes and Bernstein and others who sound amazing with a three finger technique, so there you go.

[sgcim]

Not sure who he is referring to but Peter Sprague wrote this:

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
Yeah, it's from PS, who spent some time in Boston studying classical guitar. I guess that's where he got it from.

[JaxJaxon]

I use diffrent types. If I want to heve clear notes consistanly I do the finger tips. If the chord dosent need to be clear and clean then I will use the flat Barr, As far as getting faster on single notes yes up on finger tips helps to be faster.

[rpjazzguitar]

If you're playing tied whole notes at 70bpm, sure, use a different finger for each note.

If you have to play a written-out line at a tempo that's a little too fast for you, the last thing you need is a "rule" like this.

Sometimes laying down a finger is the only way I can get something up to tempo. So, the choice is, let the two notes run together a tiny bit, bearing in mind that the tempo is fast anyway, vs. leave something out.

[whiskey02]

There's a famous or infamous quote out there from C P E Bach that states (roughly) "my father always played XXX with ### fingers, except for when he didn't". Do whatever you think best, but if you're a slave to a system or rule, you're a dope.