Attack/Tone/Recording

**Skip Ellis** · 12-08-2020, 10:54 AM

Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
Any suggestions?

**citizenk74** · 12-08-2020, 12:14 PM

As I have mentioned before, the initial attack of a plucked guitar note is a hot mess of chaotic output in the microseconds it takes for the string to settle in to a stable vibrational mode with identifiable harmonic content. That's one of many reasons I love tube amps with their soft-knee compression and even order-harmonics. Lacking tubes, a compressor used as a peak limiter at least tends to keep the chaos from dominating the ear's impression of the note. You might try that. Of course, one of your amp syms may have that stuff modeled. Good luck!

**Hep To The Jive** · 12-08-2020, 12:22 PM

You just need good amp plugins. It's almost 2021, those things are commonly used for home recordings for almost 20 years now, right?

**sgosnell** · 12-08-2020, 01:06 PM

Getting the sound of Wes Montgomery from a Tele is going to be very difficult, if even possible. The vibration of the humbucker with the top, under the vibrating strings, gives a complexity of sound that just isn't possible from a rigid plank. Perhaps some pedals or software could help some, but a tele is never going to sound quite the same. It's possible to get somewhere in the ballpark, perhaps, but not the same.

**mr. beaumont** · 12-08-2020, 01:13 PM

I think you can get close. Thumb is huge. It has to be thumb to sound like Wes.

You're not going to get that "Misty" on Smokin' at the Half Note sound, where you're really getting some acoustic properties of the guitar coming through. But Wes' more plugged in sounds, I'm gonna try.

I'm going to try a little experiment later, and see how "Wes" like I can get with my tele. There's a few tricks I have in mind...

**Hep To The Jive** · 12-08-2020, 01:25 PM

I think you can get Wes vibe on a tele playing with thumb for sure. But from the OP I gather the problem is basically recording straight to the interface, with no amps or plugins. It's not a nice sound to say the least, Wes or no Wes. It's like plug in guitar into PA mixing board with no pedals or amp simulation. I can't think of anything good comes out of it, and it's so not fun.

Reaper doesn't come with guitar plugins, so you might want to invest into Ampltube or Guitar Rig apps, they supposed to be good. I have Logic, and Fender Blackface plugin sounds mighty good!

The alternative is to use pedals or your amp direct out to interface. It should work, but less flexible for editing.

**neatomic** · 12-08-2020, 02:06 PM

wes was using a standel solid state amp with a big jbl 15" speaker....15's move a lot of air...hard sound to duplicate

cheers

**christianm77** · 12-08-2020, 02:21 PM

Speaker IR’s help a lot.

**Hep To The Jive** · 12-08-2020, 02:25 PM

I used Reaper for a while, and I didn't know about that guitar plug in!

**kris** · 12-12-2020, 02:49 AM

I suggest good arch-top jazz guitar for the style of Wes.Hollow-body guitar with the thumb is a quintesence of Wes sound.
Octavs,chords,scals sounds more realistic and powerfull with real jazz box.
my 1 cent
Best
Kris
ps.
anway I like Teles.I have 3 of them...:-)

**Litterick** · 12-12-2020, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by neatomic

wes was using a standel solid state amp with a big jbl 15" speaker....15's move a lot of air...hard sound to duplicate

cheers

And that sound went into a microphone, down cables and into a mixing desk, behind which sat Orrin Keepnews or Creed Taylor.

**djg** · 12-12-2020, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

And that sound went into a microphone, down cables and into a mixing desk, behind which sat Orrin Keepnews or Creed Taylor.

i dont think keepnews or taylor sat behind the mixing desk. they were producers and not engineers. many of wes' most famous recordings have the guitar actually plugged directly into the mixing console. (edit: i think this is mentioned in the booklet of the riverside box)

best amp i've ever played: fender jazz king

**pingu** · 12-12-2020, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by djg;[URL="[URL

tel:1082232[/URL]"]1082232[/URL]]many of wes' most famous recordings have the guitar actually plugged directly into the mixing console.

thats interesting ....

IME a tele with light gauge plugged direct to a console sounds a bit ‘ding ding’
and needs an amp or preamp to fatten it up somewhat

but a jazz box with fat strings can sound
pretty good straight in ....

I think an easy and cheap solution for
you might be one of these

https://m.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_american_truetone.htm

**emanresu** · 12-12-2020, 01:54 PM

The impedance of the input should match with guitar's. If the interface doesn't have dedicated hole for the guitar, it's hopeless to get a good sound like that.

**neatomic** · 12-12-2020, 02:08 PM

it was not unusual for guitarists to go thru an amp and a direct box...so the board would get mic'd amp sound and direct...and could be blended for best tone

in jazz focused studios in nyc, like nola, they'd have the electric bassist go thru an ampeg b-15 and a direct box...but most often just use the direct box channel & not even mic the ampeg

the ampeg fliptop b-15 was the nyc studio standard, even into the 80's

a classic workhorse amp

cheers

**lawson-stone** · 12-12-2020, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
Any suggestions?

I'd suggest not recording direct from the guitar to the board. I like using an amp that has a direct line out from the preamp, or better, a line out with cabinet emulation. This gives you more control over your sound. I also like using a Shure SM57 on the cab. It's amazing how well that works, even at low volumes. Most amps now have a pre-amp line out, so you can get the tone you like before sending it to the board.

**christianm77** · 12-13-2020, 10:38 AM

Ok IR thing. ‘impulse response’ tech is great at simulating resonance and space; so acoustic guitar bodies, rooms, speaker cabs and speakers. Stuff like that.

Get the ‘Wall of Sound’ plugin from TwoNotes Torpedo. Use a DI from your amp, character pedal, software amp or whatever you use. You can decide what kind of space you want and what type of speaker and mic you want.

You’ll never need to Mike an amp again.

This is how it sounds with the IR using the Junior Barnyard preamp for a Charlie Christian vibe. (Sorry about the Instagram link.)
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This is simulating a ribbon mic on a 10” speaker in a room with hard surfaces with the mic backed off slightly from the amp (I hate the sound of close miking.)

The rhythm guitar was recorded with another type of IR; a Tonedexter on a DI’d piezo pickup.

Very natural I think.

**citizenk74** · 12-13-2020, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ok IR thing. ‘impulse response’ tech is great at simulating resonance and space; so acoustic guitar bodies, rooms, speaker cabs and speakers. Stuff like that.

Get the ‘Wall of Sound’ plugin from TwoNotes Torpedo. Use a DI from your amp, character pedal, software amp or whatever you use. You can decide what kind of space you want and what type of speaker and mic you want.

You’ll never need to Mike an amp again.

This is how it sounds with the IR using the Junior Barnyard preamp for a Charlie Christian. (Sorry about the Instagram link.)
Login • Instagram

This is simulating a ribbon mic on a 10” speaker in a room with hard surfaces with the mic backed off slightly from the amp (I hate the sound of close miking.)

The rhythm guitar was recorded with another type of IR; a Tonedexter on a DI’d piezo pickup.

Very natural I think.

I have the El Pescadoro pedal cited in the link. Haven't tried it with the 175 as yet. Very cool pedal!

BTW, enviable tone and playing with your 175, Nice!

**christianm77** · 12-13-2020, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

I have the El Pescadoro pedal cited in the link. Haven't tried it with the 175 as yet. Very cool pedal!

BTW, enviable tone and playing with your 175, Nice!

Thanks!

It’s one of THOSE pedals in that it sounds great with every guitar including piezo acoustics (!)

Anyway mine arrived the other day. I love how it has different knobs and rubber feet from my friends. Clearly built by one guy in a workshop like the old Klon centaurs...

**John A.** · 12-13-2020, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
Any suggestions?

Amp sims make a huge difference. I get more convincing amp tones out of plugins than I do mic'ing an amp (and I have a great amp and decent mics) when I record at home.

The line out from your amp might sound better if it has speaker emulation circuitry of some kind, but if it doesn't it'll probably still sound overly bright and the attack will seem distorted.

John

**vsaumarez** · 12-23-2020, 01:59 PM

Wes often had an acoustic quality to his recordings so his guitar may have been mic'd, with another in front of his amp.

**lawson-stone** · 12-23-2020, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by vsaumarez

Wes often had an acoustic quality to his recordings so his guitar may have been mic'd, with another in front of his amp.

Funny how perceptions differ. I never think if Wes having an acoustic tone. It always seemed to me the quintessential electric L5 sound. But my ear isn’t the final authority I should listen more with that in mind.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Gabor** · 12-23-2020, 03:29 PM

Any electric guitar with any PU clean output into a guitar amp-less chain sounds terrible, you simply can not do that. Guitar amps even in the cleanest setting way effects the sound, that is what we know as "clean electric sound".

Either

a) use a software amp sim like AmpliTube 4, or the brand new 5. An alternative is Bias Amp 2. Any amp sim has VST plugin version, so you simply can configure inside your DAW (Reaper) track.
b) use you amp line out if any, in case of no line out, try the headphones out.
c) If there is no line or headphone out on the amp use a microphone, the universal cheapest instrument mic is Shure SM 57, dynamic, or a cheaper condenser mike

Option a) or b) is recommended, which is the easier to try

**grahambop** · 12-23-2020, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gabor

Any electric guitar with any PU clean output into a guitar amp-less chain sounds terrible, you simply can not do that.

Not true in all cases. This is my ES 175 plugged straight into my recording device, all that was added was a little reverb. No amp sims or other effects.