Came up with an epic tip for improv

[Bobby Timmons]

Go listen to a recording you made and pick out the lamest motif that you repeat. Then take it and practice reshaping it in as many ways as you can. Bam, killed 2 birds with 1 stone. Eliminated a lame idea and gained good ideas. Can expand on it note wise or rhythms wise.

[mr. beaumont]

So...practice?

[Bobby Timmons]

Uh, no sir. Practicing usually doesn't automatically make you do that.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Uh, no sir. Practicing usually doesn't automatically make you do that.

Maybe you have been practicing the wrong way so far?

I think what Mr. Beaumont is talking about is that you should really listen to yourself while practicing and immediately realize that an idea wasn't working so well and work on it immediately to make it better.

[Bobby Timmons]

Maybe you're practicing the wrong way so far. Where are your clips?

As if noone has anything to improve on, or runs a perfect take every time lol. Anyone can find one bad motif and take that and make it into a good one, thereby efficiently improving their playing.

And why tf is anyone on the forum if all you have to do is practice? Dur just go practice, that's all you have to do. Because breaking things down helps you improve more effectively. A teacher should know that.

[pamosmusic]

Since we’re guessing about Jeff’s state of mind, I’ll go ahead and guess he was just yanking your chain because of the superlatives in the thread title and not knocking the idea.

It’s a cool idea. I do something similar with students but not recording. I’ll have them set a timer and, whenever the timer goes off, they have to do the kind of stuff you’re describing with the last idea they played.

I like it because it also makes them work on musical memory too. You’d be surprised how many folks can’t remember the last thing they played … which would make developing a melody pretty tricky.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Maybe you're practicing the wrong way so far. Where are your clips?

As if noone has anything to improve on, or runs a perfect take every time lol. Anyone can find one bad motif and take that and make it into a good one, thereby efficiently improving their playing.

And why tf is anyone on the forum if all you have to do is practice? Dur just go practice, that's all you have to do. Because breaking things down helps you improve more effectively.

No time for recording clips ATM.

I practiced publicly five hours on Thursday and seven on Tuesday in Munich's pedestrian zone to make some dough (which paid my second Blackstar HT-1R which I picked up in Stuttgart on Wednesday). Went to an open stage on Wednesday night to perform three of my own songs (got very good feedback), to the Thursday night jam session at the blues bar just around the corner (positive feedback as well, one mandolin player might join me for busking) and to a blues and rock session tonight where I took the first jam slot to get home early. One guy in his seventies approached me afterwards and asked where i got my voice from, that he had been deeply touched and that my performance alone had made it worth coming to the session. On Sunday I go to Jazz Club Unterfahrt for their weekly jam session. I decided not to go to a jazz session that is a one hour train ride from Munich tonight because I need to spend some time with my girl friend sometimes as well. Next week I will do two busking afternoons (Tuesday and Friday) in the pedestrian zone again, will go to another open stage on Monday night, manouche session on Wednesday night, blues session on Thursday night and paid gig at a private party on Friday night. I really have to think about where to put my eleven year old guitar student into the schedule as she has returned from holiday. I am looking forward to see if she already can play Nothing Else Matters LOL.

You see I am quite busy musically, it is always also practice and it starts to pay -- musically and financially. Where are your gigs? I heard you are mad at gigs LOL.

BTW I just found an old SD card I can use for the used Zoom H4 mobile recorder I bought from busking money recently. So you will hear some recordings from me soon.


EDIT: I will not wear suit and tie at Unterfahrt. Unfortunately the summer is over, the temperature has dropped by 15 degrees and it is too cold for cargo shorts and sandals (at least for me) as well LOL.

[ccroft]

I think it's a great idea. I do it almost every day. I don't even need a recording!

[Bobby Timmons]

Far out Bop Head. You go to amateur events? My mind is blown. That surely entitles you to go around constantly telling people what's what as if you're superior and trying to shamelessly aggrandize yourself. Can't play so being a little weasel on the forum is your only recourse?

[mr. beaumont]

I was definitely chain yanking.

Because that's EXACTLY what practice should be! Find the shit that sucks and unsuck it.

[Mick-7]

Go listen to a recording you made and pick out the lamest motif that you repeat. Then take it and practice reshaping it in as many ways as you can. Bam, killed 2 birds with 1 stone. Eliminated a lame idea and gained good ideas. Can expand on it note wise or rhythms wise.

That would be good if I played licks but I don't, I just try to play the music I hear in my head, and I measure my success by how well I can do that, so the only lame phrase is the one that doesn't match what I've imagined.

[pamosmusic]

That would be good if I played licks but I don't, I just try to play the music I hear in my head, and I measure my success by how well I can do that, so the only lame phrase is the one that doesn't match what I've imagined.

Man then I hope the music in your head doesn’t suck.

[Bobby Timmons]

I didn't say lick foo. Any friggin melodic idea that you use. If there is a melodic idea that you take to but that doesn't sound good, take it and reshape it a bunch of different ways so it not only sounds good but gives you variety. You go from a lame overused idea, to a good sounding creative idea.

[Mick-7]

Man then I hope the music in your head doesn’t suck.

If it did, I'd resort to playing licks.... the thing is, we are all more or less a product of what we've listened to throughout our lives, and barring genius (which I consider to be a rare thing), whatever we play has been played before by somebody. That is to say, we are all copying somebody, intentionally or not.

I didn't say lick foo. Any friggin melodic idea that you use. If there is a melodic idea that you take to but that doesn't sound good, take it and reshape it a bunch of different ways so it not only sounds good but gives you variety. You go from a lame overused idea, to a good sounding creative idea.

I don't dissect what I play like that, I just keep playing, see what comes out, and keep what I like. It requires a great deal of concentration, which I am not always up to and so may turn to practicing something easier.

[pamosmusic]

If it did, I'd resort to playing licks.... the thing is, we are all more or less a product of what we've listened to throughout our lives, and barring genius (which I consider to be a rare thing), whatever we play has been played before by somebody. That is to say, we are all copying somebody, intentionally or not.

I generally think of things like the ability to develop a melody, or to play what one hears, or honestly the ability to hear more and more interesting things at all to be skills that can be honed.

Ah well. It’s boring down here amongst the mortals.

[Bobby Timmons]

I don't dissect what I play like that, I just keep playing, see what comes out, and keep what I like.

Well good for you. Getting to a level where the playing sounds good at all times requires scrutinizing your playing.

I generally think of things like the ability to develop a melody, or to play what one hears, or honestly the ability to hear more and more interesting things at all to be skills that can be honed.

Of course.

[pamosmusic]

A redirect for Mr Timmons:

When you talk about "reshaping" an idea. What does that mean to you?

[princeplanet]

Far out Bop Head. You go to amateur events? My mind is blown. That surely entitles you to go around constantly telling people what's what as if you're superior and trying to shamelessly aggrandize yourself. Can't play so being a little weasel on the forum is your only recourse?

Not sure what history you guys share, but seriously dude, you're way out of line here. Relax.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I can tell someone off who goes around being a jackass for years on end. How could that possibly be out of line? Analyze what he said, it took me a while to figure this out about his behavior. He not only tries to get you to yield to him, he tries to make you submit to others in the supposed pecking order. What kind of shit is that? Once I agreed with him about a BH Hague video but casually referred to the students as kids. He told me I wasn't permitted to do that because they're superior to me music wise. Here, Mr B made a jackassery comment, I refute it without overreacting, and of course Bop Head has to come in and tell me that Mr B's jackassery comment supersedes my bit of wisdom and I need to conform. Yeah, I think I'm good on letting it slide.

A redirect for Mr Timmons:

When you talk about "reshaping" an idea. What does that mean to you?

Mostly keeping the phrasing and rhythm but changing a note or 2. Or you can also change the rhythm. Basically my thinking is it doesn't take much to reshape a dumb thing that frequently just comes out your fingers into good musical vocab.

[rpjazzguitar]

I agree with Mr. B. I think of it as whack-a-mole. Something calls my attention to a weakness and I try to work on it.

My one general tip is one I've posted a number of times.

Strum chords and scat sing a solo. Then, put the lines on the guitar.

I think that people's singing tends to be more musical than at least some other approaches. And, going instantly from thought to guitar is a basic, maybe the basic, skill in improv.

And, the usual caveat. However you do it, there's a great player who did it some other way.

[Mick-7]

I generally think of things like the ability to develop a melody, or to play what one hears, or honestly the ability to hear more and more interesting things at all to be skills that can be honed.

Yes, those are the skills I work on, didn't mean to sound esoteric. For me, trying to reproduce the music I'm hearing is the most effective improvisation method I've found. Trying to string together discrete musical phrases never really worked for me.

[Christian Miller]

Well I think it’s a good idea


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[pamosmusic]

Yes, those are the skills I work on, didn't mean to sound esoteric. For me, trying to reproduce the music I'm hearing is the most effective improvisation method I've found. Trying to string together discrete musical phrases never really worked for me.

I don’t think you’re really coming at what’s being described here from a charitable place.

I don’t think we’re talking about “stringing together discrete musical phrases.” The idea is kind of the opposite. To take an idea that you like and develop it. I have a lot of ideas for what that means to me (curious what it means to Bobby), but it doesn’t mean “licks.”

When I’m trying to sit there and do this when I practice, or use a certain device a lot of times, I’m trying to train myself to hear it —see where it fits, what it can do rhythmically, how it can be manipulated — almost more than I’m trying train myself to play it.

You mention us being products of what we listen to — and I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect to be able to hear an idea on a record and extrapolate out a bunch of other interesting things without practicing that as a skill. Frankly I doubt anyone could, short of the genius you refer to earlier. So you might say you practice playin what you hear in your head, but I would want to know how you practice hearing better.

and if we’re listening to jazz, we’re sure as heck listening to some licks too. Thinking of Sonny on St Thomas — one of that greatest examples of motivic development on the books — and he moves freely between loose rhythmic motifs and bebop vocabulary. So there’s that too.

[Christian Miller]

I think people should get over themselves and learn licks.

It's not the be all and end all, but it is a great way into playing stuff.

(Also the surprisingly pervasive propaganda against idiom is IMO tantamount to educational malpractice....)

[mr. beaumont]

Re: licks-- absolutely. I think the key is to have licks that are malleable...they're ideas you can stretch, contract, make fit different situations, bar lengths, etc..

My first comment was jackassery but also not...to me, that's what practice is. Looking for weaknesses and fixing them. If I'm repeating a lame idea (and believe me, I repeat plenty of lame ideas) that's absolutely something I work on fixing-- either tweaking to make better or find a different way...it's why I record myself so much (and submit you all to my work in progress videos)