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I have recently been fiddling with the whole tone scale. I see it fits a dom chord almost perfectly. Also an aug chord , which I don't run into often.
I was wondering if anyone had any tricks or observations on the use of this scale.
I am trying to simplify my knowledge, so I can just spontaneously compose on the fly. I am not smart enough to call up everything I know when in an improv situation.
I realize that if I flat all degrees of the WTS I have a chromatic scale. Which is what I'm trying to get into my ear. The way all 12 tones sound at any given point on any chord, without sounding like aimless gibberish. Tension and release on the fly is my goal.
I figured this was a good place to ask the question. Lots of knowledge here.
I'm not really a "jazz" player, although I've be accused of it . I would call what I play, a jazz, rock , blues, Celtic, Indian , Fusion, Delta hybrid Folk style.
I don't know my way around Pygmy music though . My favorite scale is the 5th inversion of the harmonic minor .
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08-15-2011 10:21 AM
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Find the dominant chord tones and make a backing track or find an Aebersold volume that has a track of dom7#11. Then play with it from a chord/passing note approach.
And then try it as a scale approach over the same context.
Try it as a scale that leads you to a note on the next chord.
Find your own way around it, there are so many mixtures of sounds, that any pattern you find can be repeated starting from any note on the scale.
Listen to Monk and Debussey.
Discover your own way through it before too many people tell you what you should do!
David
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At the risk of telling you what you should do (!) ... if your music doesn't have #5 or b5 chords in it, the easiest place to slip in a little whole tone scale is on the dominant seventh chord of any minor key: so, try a little E wholetone over E7 when the key is A minor, for example. The key is not to overdo it, unless you're going for the Wholetonious Monk thing.
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Going to find some Wholetonius Monk to listen too . BDLH you are a character.
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This might fall in the tricks category, but still...
In some cases part of the chord you're playing over is an augmented triad. If you try to take that triad out and ignore the rest then you can use wholetone on that.
For example: Am(maj7) (or any tonic minor chord?) has c e g# in it so you could use C D E F# G# Bb over it. You might notice that it is very similar to A melodic minor, except you've splice the A and B into an "outside" Bb
. This probably works best if you have some time on a tonic minor like, recorda me, invitation or something like that.
There's a similar trick with diminished.
Jens
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Dom7#5 chords come out of the whole tone scale. The Dom7#5 chord being a possible dominant of a minor key, also, reinforcing what BigDaddy said.
Remember this, there's only two whole tone scales. The whole tone scale repeats every whole step, so if you raise any given note by a half step and start your scale from there, you have the other whole tone scale (so you have one built on the low E, then one built on the low F, those are the two lowest notes on your guitar).
There's a pretty cool example of the exact usage of the half step division in the whole tone scale on Wes Montgomery's Four On Six solo on Smokin' at the Half Note. Close to the beginning there's a part where he uses an augmented arpeggio and takes the shape through 3 or 4 steps of the whole tone scale.
Apart from listening to Monk, Wayne Shorter is actually fond of using the Whole Tone scale too. Listen to his music.
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If we stay with the Am tonic. Then you have:
A mel. min: A B C D E F# G# A, if you split the 5th of the scale in Db and F you get:
A B C D Eb F F# G# A which is A diminished.
To me the wholetone idea is a bit stronger, probably because the augmented sound is easier to hear. So I use this one a lot less.
Jens
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I've seen it a couple of times in this query , but what is meant by
"split" the scale . I assume it means adding accidentals.
I don't understand the terminolgy . Please explain
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jens is referring to the fact that the scales are similar except one scale has the Perfect 5th (D) when one has two pitches that are above and below the perfect 5th (Db and Eb), so in his mind he has split the 5th into 2 pitches near the original pitch D,
Originally Posted by ottocat
Sounds like a fun way to mix some scalar ideas together, show progression or change by playing some licks with the D, then some runs that omit the D but use the Db and Eb. I like the idea.
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@ottocat:
Indeed:
in the diminished I split E into Eb and F, and in the other one I merge A and B to Bb.
This is not in anyway a strict theory term...
Jens
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Not everybody "gets" the blues like Wholetonius Monk .
I hear all kinds of guys ask how do I play "outside" ?
To me that's how it sounds , what's "outside" ?
A friend said " audiences are used to having their fannies kissed".
That's why there's corny music .
How do you go through life never exploring ? Seems kind of bland if you don't .
I have to find some Pygmy music to listen too.
Ethiopian folk music is very cool.
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Don Mock has a good book/cd on the wholetone scale. Very informative.
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Okay, I'm a bit confused now lol. I'm just not particularly clear on how to use the WTS either... So if the chord has an augmented triad, then it's okay to use the WTS? What about chords with a diminished triad?
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I'd say to bring out the notes of the chord, the WT on an augmented is a good match except if you extended to a 7th degree, then you'll conflict. Originally Posted by Astronomer
In the strictest sense of the use, diminished wouldn't work, it too is based on a symmetrical scale (repeating interval stacked) but the diminished is a m3, the WT is a 2nd. Basic math says not a happy match up for the most part.
Now in a looser reading, find out where both chords function as dominant chords and of course you can do a 7th chord substitution.
G#dim going to A-7, you can use an E WT to the A-7. Think of them as two ways to get you to a target chord.
David
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My suggestions were not meant as 1st choices, they belong more in the special effects department. Originally Posted by Astronomer
In terms of more genereal rules I'd say that the chord should be contained in the scale you want to play on top of it. So in the case of whole tone scale that will only give you augmented triads and b5/#5 dom7th chords.
Jens
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Nice lesson about the whole tone scale.
Good example how to use this scale over minor chords not only dominant chords.
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Great stuff! Thanks for sharing that.. Originally Posted by kris
Thought I'd share these two jam tracks to help people practice this very tasty concept!
Wholetone jam track
and a 2-5-1 bossa jam track in C Minor
Enjoy....
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I like to anchor that application of the whole tone scale to the augmented chord that has the #7 of the minor-major7 chord, the same as I do for the melodic minor. Of course, you don't find a minor-major7 in the whole tone scale, but I find the augmented sound to be a unifying concept that ties the two different nuances together.
I don't know why, but it works.
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B wholtone scale has same 5 notes as c min melodic scale/B Eb F G A/...so it's good work over c min chords. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
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B whole tone if conceived of as G or Db whole tone is an dominant chord approach sound to C minor. Originally Posted by kris
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I had a lesson from Dutch guitarist Maarten v/d Grinten where he explained it to me as a fusion of the C and D to C# (in C melodic minor). And continued to talk about splitting the 5th so that you could play Cdim over CmMaj7.
Both explanations are anything but valid, but still I like them.
Jens
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Well that explains it! Originally Posted by kris
I like using wholetone on the Gm7 in "Mr P.C" or "Four on Six". It gives time to establish that sound.
Those augmented sounds can be effective when used in moderation. I find it is easy to "break" it like with the diminished scale.
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what key do you play Mr.PC? Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
this is cm blues...you can play B wholtone over cm...
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McCoy Tyner does this in the tune "Inception". In his solo it begins with a whole tone scale over C minor.
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I realize this is an old thread, but I was working on the solo for Four on Six from the Live at the Half Note album and Wes definitely uses these shapes as mentioned in the video Andreas Oberg shows in it. Wes seems to be using the F# Wholetone scale shapes over the Gmin7.
I'm talking about the short. quick lick that starts at about 42sec here:
Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Last edited by monkmiles; 06-01-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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