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I have a song with a D9 on it. What is the proper way to solo over it? I know that on a sharp 9 Larry Carlton recommends either a blues scale or a dimnished, but what over a regulat 9?
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08-27-2011 06:39 AM
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D mixolydian would be the traditional choice.
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Originally Posted by richb2
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And once you've tried the D Mixolydian, you might experiment with flattening the 5th. That would give you a Lydian b7th scale, which can be fun. The notes would be D E F# G# A B C
Often it depends where you have been and where you are heading. A simple A minor arpeggio over a D7 can be just what the doctor ordered. And because D7 is often viewed as a V7 of G Major, any diatonic triad would give interesting results. For example, triads of G Major, A minor, B Minor, C Major, D Major, E minor and F#dim - try each over a D7 vamp. Each will give a different result. And, of course, a G Major scale would give you the same notes as D Mixolydian, but with a different focus, maybe.
And after all that, try a chromatic scale! Then mix it all up.
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What I understand is that you guys are saying just handle like you would a D7? I would use A melodic minor or a D7 arp. I got to try a Gmaj scale over it.
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You could also treat it as an arp. Either add the 9 to the D7 arp, or drop the 7th and add the 9. Or play an A-7 arp, which emphasize's the 9 and 11 of the D7. I like to go back and forth between an A-6 and an A-7 arp. When playing the A-6 arp, just drop the 7th. Fun and easy sounds to mix with the rest of your solo.
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That's the kind of chart I like to whip out to scare blooz guys.
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LMAO!!! That would do it! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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D7 = D9. It's just an extension. Same with D11, D13. When you alter notes (such as #9,b9,#11, ect) is when you really have to think of what to play.
You could also play a HW diminished scale from the root.
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One way to find scales from chords is to simply fill in the missing degrees.
Starting notes:
D---F#---A---C---E
1---3-----5---b7--9(2)
In a 7 note scale the 4th and 6th degree are the missing notes.
4th degree---G or G#
6th degree---B or Bb
DEF#GABC------------(Vth degree G Major)
DEF#GABbC-----------(Vth degree G Melodic Minor)
DEF#G#ABC-----------(IVth degree A Melodic Minor)
DEF#G#ABbC This one contains 2 consecutive half steps (G#-A-Bb) not a great choice for a basic scale.
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Many many options of course, I like to use a D pentatone, replacing the minor third with a major third. The 9 and 13 can be used too, making it a full mixolydian, but this approach makes it a bit less "scale-like" for me. Originally Posted by richb2
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Originally Posted by MortenFaerestrand
I will give that a whirl myself Sensei!!
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Generally you have an approach, how you hear and understand the tune... which would start with an analysis that reflects the context of the tune or even simply changes etc... That usually gives you the starting point, or a base to begin the development process. This entire process only take a few moments...most of the time less.
As Bako was saying, with D9, you have most of the notes spelled out, your analysis would give you the rest of the notes. This is still only a start, many times the actual chord doesn't always reflect what the implied harmonic tonal area is. The chord doesn't always need to reflect the melody or actual tonal area... just like the melody doesn't always need to be in the chord and implied harmonic area being played. There are many approaches or organizational methods of using notes out of implied tonal area. All this being said there are the obvious basic or standard collections of notes... whether you use them scalar, arpeggio style or how ever you choose. If by proper you mean based on historical use by jazz players... the further you go back in time the simpler it usually gets, theoretically ... the actual playing aspect... great players are always great...
When I'm talking about an approach to playing over a tune or even simply D9, even if your theoretically challenged...you generally hear something, right. What you hear reflects an approach. If your hearing blues, pentatonics, Dorian, somewhat in The Carlton, Scofield style etc... That is an approach which reflects a tonal center with common analysis and standard subs and pitch collections. There are standard methods to come up with those pitch collections with implied references... It's not randomly played blue notes. Although with many players it sure sounds like it is. If your using the trial and error method of developing your ear to hear those pitch collection... yes it does take a while, and when you start playing tunes with more changes... besides basic blues... well you probable already know what I'm talking about. Anyway there are many other approaches... like pulling from lydian tonal center for all changes, similar process but using Diminished chords, or any other multi-tonic system approach. Generally associated with Coltrane, the three tonic system and dominant approach, the Diminished approached can be related to a four tonic system. Or as Rich was hinting at... Melodic Min., the modal interchange approach, which generally has other controlling or guiding contexts which helps balance your choices of MI. Basically anything someone can come up with and theoretically back it up can work, become an approach to play a tune.
Here's my disclaimer.... If it sounds good to "your Ear" it is good to "your Ear"...
An approach is a method of training your ears to be able to hear... trial and error may work, but there are lots of examples where it doesn't.... I understand most want to get to that point where they learn it all then throw it away... and simply play.... cool, good luck. I'm a pro and very rarely do I get to simply play. The majority of the time it's a combination of simply playing and being aware of what's implied by the tune and listening to know what might be implied and where the tune might go. Which to me... is simply playing.
Generally most tunes already have an approach built in... what the composer had in mind. That's part of your job as a player... being able to recognize that approach. And then when you change or develop your own approach, you'll reflect the actual tune. Obviously... we can play what ever we choose, but I always think I would be disrespecting the tune or composer if I didn't go through the process. I might as well compose my own tune...
There are many layers or levels of understanding, even a simple D9 chord, your playing will reflect your understanding of just that.
Reg
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>>Generally you have an approach, how you hear and understand the tune...
REG, are you wasted?
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Wasted... hmmm... OK... play whatever reflects the context . Originally Posted by richb2
Sorry about too much BS... I do get rummy sometimes, not so much from drinking, simply playing lots of gigs.
I figured if your asking about a D9 chord, that's a pretty open door and it's as good of a time as any to actually explain what the process of determining what to play might cover... but hey, yea play some pentatonics, mix in a little Dorian and scatter in some blue notes, on weak side of both harmonic and rhythmic rhythm, pull in a little tension with some diminished and altered chromatic notes... presto, your a hip jazz player...
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Reg, is there something wrong? Are you ok?
I am following you. I got your points in your original statement. You were right, as far as I can see. But you seem frustrated. I enjoy listening to what you have to say.
But alas, PRESTO, I am still not a hip jazz player, but I sure am trying.
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I may be wrong, but I think Reg might just be getting at the fact that it can be a little misleading to just talk about a collection of pitches over a single chord. The context of the tune - the entirety of the tune, not just the "chord progression" - is the best guide as to what to play.
I personally have a bit of a like/dislike relationship with these discussions. The discussion of different note choices over a chord is something that I think is more useful to those who already have done a hefty amount of transcribing and have a vocabulary to get through most standard tunes.
To those that might still be struggling to say something traditional or sensible over Stella or Beautiful Love, focusing too much on note choices on individual chords (especially dominant chords) is misleading, as I think the priority should first be on developing lines that articulate the harmony in a horizontal fashion while reflecting the melody of the tune. But that's just my opinion.
That's not at all a knock against the discussion of "what notes over chord X," I just think for one player it might be interesting and useful food for thought, and for another it may be a misdirection.
Maybe Reg is talking about looking at a bigger picture of music making and playing over tunes rather than putting together potentially shallow tips and tricks, but I may be misinterpreting him.
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Well, for my personal opinion: I think of the chord tones as anchor notes, "safe" notes, and everything else as potential colour notes. Get a bandinabox jam that's just a repeated 9th chord, over and over, and try the chromatic scale over it. Play each note repeatedly, getting the sound of it in your head, write down how you think it sounds, where you think it might be appropriate (I'd do this by noting the scale degrees, but that's just me). And then start experimenting.
As to playing in the context of tunes- playing a note from the immediately preceding chord over the current one, even if it might sound a bit odd, generally allows you to establish continuity; the same with playing a note from the next chord over this one.
To sum it up, basically: experiment. Write down your findings, and work on them. Find what works for you; don't just take the "scale X over chord Y" approach. Music is deeply personal.
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And for the sorry so-and-so's like me who are just getting into improvization, and for whom music is not a religious experience or deep healing experience - just a fun indulgence - giving me "safe notes" (good term) helps.
Normally, the solos I hear in my head tend to be simple major, minor, pentatonic forays. Introducing me to other "safe notes" helps me experiment more constructively in that it tends to be the same style as those artists that I liked.
But like I thinking Jake A. was implying, giving too many options to someone too soon can result in confusion in many. Sometimes it best to keep it simple and allow the person to ease into it the way Shadow of the Sun put it, one note at a time.
Great topic!
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not trying to get philosophical, but when i hear "dominant 9th", i assume someone is talking about a dominant chord that maybe isnt going to resolve? which is a very common chord indeed.
for the guys that talk more in chord/scales, maybe try thinking about using minor7b5 arpeggios off the 3rd instead. for example Bm7b5 (B D F A) over G9. gives you all the notes you need and you dont have to learn a different arpeggio shape for a 9th chord. this approach will work nicely over minor 6th chords (same Bm7b5 notes work for Dm6, Db7#5b9, and F6#11).
the lydian dominant (G9#11) is another option that works well in these same instances. much more hip sounding to me than straight up mixolydian sounds.
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I'm with you Matty. I use that approach a lot. Also Lydian dom as well. I guess it is all about what you are trying to do.
Jake's points were insightful as well.
I like the idea of not being afraid of letting notes from proceeding and succeeding chords as well, be played. Of course looking at the melody is always a great insight into the form being implied. I think that was one of Reg's points. Using the already established pathway,
Sorry about my spelling, I am using my new touch pad and have not figured out how to move the cursor back to catch my errors.
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 08-28-2011 at 11:55 PM.
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hey BB59 and Jake... yea...sorry, I do get frustrated and forget that most guitar players... have very little understanding of music theory, let alone jazz theory... and really don't care, why should they. The entire academic process in general has been going momentary for a while.
I think I'll get back to posting teaching videos of different theory topics, and approaches , with tunes. I am a little fried, I think I've played over 20 gigs already this month, and recorded a new CD... anyway would be pretty simple to play through five or six approaches to different contexts of D9 examples... any suggestions of topics or tunes...Reg
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