Superimposed Triads?

**Asiancat** · 02-09-2012, 01:35 AM

Hi there,

Please bear with me for awhile. I came across this guy from youtube who talks about improvising with triads, but when he starts talking about superimposed triads or upperstructure chords I started feeling like, I'm getting nowhere.
I felt like I'm missing a lot of Jargon words here in Jazz.. I feel so confused.
What I want to know is, What exactly are these superimposed triads are for? and how do I apply it into my playing? with improvisation specifically.
I'm wondering if this is too advanced for me.. I'm still in the process of learning how to outline the changes when phrasing, but it wouldn't hurt to learn something new I guess.

**aniss1001** · 02-09-2012, 01:59 AM

Superimposing triads as you call it is a very useful indeed in jazz. I recently became aware of it's importance.

The idea is using triads over other chords to create extensions / upper structeres. For instance if you play an E triad over a G7 chord you create a G13b9 sound. A Db triad over the same chord creates a G7b5b9 sound etc. You can also superimpose 4-note chords off course but perhaps it's not a bad idea to start with the triads. There are MANY posibilities.

I recommend checking out Don Mock's book "Artful arpeggios" about this particular subject

**Asiancat** · 02-09-2012, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Superimposing triads as you call it is a very useful indeed in jazz. I recently became aware of it's importance.

The idea is using triads over other chords to create extensions / upper structeres. For instance if you play an E triad over a G7 chord you create a G13b9 sound. A Db triad over the same chord creates a G7b5b9 sound etc. You can also superimpose 4-note chords off course but perhaps it's not a bad idea to start with the triads. There are MANY posibilities.

I recommend checking out Don Mock's book "Artful arpeggios" about this particular subject

Hi aniss1001,

Thank you for responding. It took me awhile to internalize all those chords with following extension names and compare with the superimposed chord triad. I had to spell out the notes of the chord that you mentioned. But I get the picture.. I'm far away from my instrument at the moment, but I can somehow imagine the dissonant feat. it can perhaps make.. an Interesting topic indeed.
now I'm wondering if those notes from the ' superimposed triad' can substitute to the melody chords of the 'current chord' being played; as the target for the 'changes/chord movement'!? Man this is so exciting. Can't wait to get home!
And I'll make sure to check the book you mentioned by Don mock. Thanks a lot

**JakeAcci** · 02-09-2012, 06:23 AM

Triads are useful. I think just being able to solo with chord tones - 1 3 5 7 - is an important first step. Kind of like a walk before you run thing.

**FatJeff** · 02-09-2012, 09:55 AM

The usefulness of superimposed triads relies largely on the assumption that you know your major and minor triads like the back of your hand, in every key, in every inversion, in every position all over the neck. That's traditionally Step 1 in the 12 step program of jazz guitar. :-) If you feel you have a good handle on that, I can post some interesting things you can do with them when I get home tonight. If you don't, then you know where to start. :-)

**bobby d** · 02-09-2012, 10:18 AM

Larry Carlton uses triads in his approach to soloing. He talked about it in a Guitar Player interview back in the '80s.

**FatJeff** · 02-09-2012, 10:21 AM

I think this lesson (or maybe part 2, or both) has some interesting info in it re:triads

**bako** · 02-09-2012, 10:28 AM

Let's say we are harmonizing a B note in a melody.
The following triads contain a B note:

B, G, E-----Bm, G#m, Em-----B+, G+, Eb+-----Bdim, Fdim, G#dim

There are triads superimposed that indicate extensions and there are triads superimposed that are more in the category of reharmonization.

First 2 bars "All The Things You Are"
Fm7-------------------------------------------------------------------------// Bbm7---------------------------------------------------------------------------------// original chords
-----Absus/F--------------Ab/F----------------E/F--------------Eb/F--------//-----Dbsus/Bb---------------Db/Bb--------------A/Bb---------------Ab/Bb--------//
X-X-F-Db-Eb-Ab----X-X-F-C-Eb-Ab----X-X-F-B-E-G#----X-X-F-Bb-Eb-G // X-X-Bb-Gb-Ab-Db----X-X-Bb-F-Ab-Db----X-X-Bb-E-A-C#----X-X-Bb-Eb-Ab-C //

This example is more about movement of voices.

**Jazz_175** · 02-09-2012, 10:40 AM

I partially studied the following book:
Triad Pairs for Jazz by Gary Campbell.
Lots of exercises and examples of triad pairs to play over different chords

TH · 02-09-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by aniss1001

I recommend checking out Don Mock's book "Artful arpeggios" about this particular subject

I second that recommendation! And if you are really into some other worldly triad explorations, the new Mick Goodrick book addresses this in a whole new way.
David

**Dark Star** · 02-09-2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by bobby d

Larry Carlton uses triads in his approach to soloing. He talked about it in a Guitar Player interview back in the '80s.

I would say it seemed like that is ALL Larry talked about in the '80s
lol

**bobby d** · 02-09-2012, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I would say it seemed like that is ALL Larry talked about in the '80s
lol

Funny, that must be the reason I actually remember it! lol

**JonnyPac** · 02-09-2012, 06:04 PM

The idea becomes clear (and arguably redundant) once you get the bigger picture of tertiary harmony (harmony based on stacked 3rd intervals - major and minor). The word polychord is often used to describe the multiple triads found within seventh chords and extended chords.

Look at Cmaj13#11 the chord. It is C E G B D F# A, the R M3 P5 M7 M9 #11 M13. Rearranged alphabetically it is the same pitch collection as C Lydian ( C D E F# G A B). BTW that is the basis of chord-scale thinking (that extended chords are very close to scales).

If you look at the Cmaj13#11 in triadic groupings you'll "see" triads stacked (superimposed) on top of each other. I will bold text them here:

C E G B D F# A = C Major Triad
C E G B D F# A = E Minor Triad
C E G B D F# A = G Major Triad
C E G B D F# A = B Minor Triad
C E G B D F# A = D Major Triad
Notes repeated/inverted:
C E G B D F# A C = F# Dim. Triad
C E G B D F# A C E = A Minor Triad

By playing these over an existing Cmaj13#11 (or suggestion of one) you are emphasizing the intervals that they represent in the Gestalt of Cmaj13#11. For example, by playing a D Major triad (in any inversion) over Cmaj13#11, you are bringing the M9 #11 and M13 tones to the forefront. That's about it! Look at the chords and scales you know and play the triads you see within.

This is essentially what happens when we superimpose pentatonic scales over existing harmonies; the five-notes in the chosen scale emphasize certain intervals (and can even de-emphasize others). For example, B Minor/D Major pentatonic over Cmaj7#11 brings out the M3 M7 M9 #11 and M13 while de-emphasising the Root and P5. Like triads, pentatonic scales sound cohesive and strong- they are one of the fundamental structures within harmony.

Hope that helps. Essential to jazz improv, yes, but nothing too crazy.

**Asiancat** · 02-09-2012, 11:58 PM

thanks for the reply guys. I'm loving this forum more and more!!

**aniss1001** · 02-10-2012, 12:25 AM

...And the best answer award goes to JonniPac... Again... Damnit!

**Dark Star** · 02-10-2012, 04:35 AM

Really- that was a cool post.

**JakeAcci** · 02-10-2012, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I becomes clear (and arguably redundant) once you get the picture of tertiary harmony (harmony based on stacked 3rd intervals - major and minor).

Look at Cmaj13#11 the chord. It is C E G B D F# A, the R M3 P5 M7 M9 #11 M13. Rearranged alphabetically it is the same pitch collection as C Lydian ( C D E F# G A B). BTW that is the basis of chord-scale thinking (that extended chords are very close to scales).

If you look at the Cmaj13#11 in triadic groupings you'll "see" triads stacked (superimposed) on top of each other. I will bold text them here:

C E G B D F# A = C Major Triad
C E G B D F# A = E Minor Triad
C E G B D F# A = G Major Triad
C E G B D F# A = B Dim. Triad
C E G B D F# A = D major Triad
Notes repeated/inverted:
C E G B D F# A C = F# dim. Triad
C E G B D F# A C E = A Minor Triad

By playing these over Cmaj13#11 you are emphasizing the intervals that they represent in the Gestalt of Cmaj13#11. For example, by playing a D Major triad (in any inversion) over Cmaj13#11, you are bringing the M9 #11 and M13 tones to the forefront. That's it. Look at the chords and scales you know and play the triads you see within.

Hope that helps. Essential to jazz improv, yes, but nothing too crazy.

Yes I agree, this is a great visual representation of how triads that can be found within chord scales, good work. Very clear layout.

Another part of triad superimposition is using triads that may not be from conventional chord scales, or might not be obvious from looking at chord scales in thirds. For example, the altered scale builds a diminished triad in third from its first degree, but obvious the core tonality is a major third.

Or, like with superimposing any harmony, you can superimpose something that relates more in a functional horizontal sense rather than overlapping with the written harmony of that measure. For example, the VII major triad can pull up to the I well no matter what the chord being played by the rhythm section is. That can be simple side stepping but it can be played in a harmonic way as well.

Going back to the vertical, one triad move I like is playing off of II over i. So if the chord is Cm, improvising with D major triad, or D major and C minor triads back and forth. Those notes laid out are within harmonic major and harmonic minor, but I found it the other way around - I came across the six note group and then later realized they happened to fit inside those chord scales, but I probably wouldn't have considered experimenting with the 4th mode of harmonic minor if I hadn't come across that sound (from Brad Mehldau)

**JonnyPac** · 02-10-2012, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by aniss1001

...And the best answer award goes to JonniPac... Again... Damnit!

Originally Posted by Dark Star

Really- that was a cool post.

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Yes I agree, this is a great visual representation of how triads that can be found within chord scales, good work. Very clear layout.

Yay! Glad that helped.

As Jake said, you can superimpose alternate "outside" or borrowed triads too. This is a great way to get out and edgy with maintain a structure in your soloing, etc. Very hip- and done often in "modern" jazz.

I really like how Debussy and Ravel used superimposed triads in their compositions- As far as I know Bill Evans, Gil Evans, Herbie, Miles and other jazz greats pulled from them often. Listen to the Gil Evans/Miles Summertime arrangement; triads and clusters at work.

**JonnyPac** · 02-12-2012, 03:50 PM

In this lesson, I cover superimposed triads and pentatonic scales. It's half about grips and voicings and half about chord-tone soloing to outline these subset structures.