Thoughts on the Jazz Melodic Minor Scale

**AlsoRan** · 05-26-2012, 11:27 PM

I have been playing around with improvising using the melodic minor scale only and I am having trouble getting my ears to really embrace it. I come from a Rock and Blues background and I have found that most of the music I hear in my head is, of course, Minor Pentatonic, Blues Scale, and the Major and Natural Minor scales. I know this because I write down the melodies in my head and these scales, or pool of notes, are consistent there.

So getting back to my question, when I play melodic minor only, over a vamping chord such as A minor, I have found that I tend to stay on the lower part of the scale - notes 1, 2, b3, 4 and 5- and then I may rise through the 6th, 7th, and upper octave when resolving and completing a musical thought or to rest.

I don't much like mixing the minor portion of the scale, with that flatted 3rd, with the major sounding portion, the 6th, 7th, and 8th (upper octave).

Is this just a hard scale and sound for me to get a handle on. Does anyone have any suggestions other than trying to listen to as much Jazz as possible (which I already do a lot of) so I can get the sound in my head as the jazz guitar masters utilized it.

I have got a bad feeling someone is going to tell me that, at least in traditional Jazz from the 40's - 60's, it just was not customary to linger to long on Jazz melodic minor, since they utilized many different scales, modes (with all due respect to the illustrious forum member JonR) and arpeggios, according to the harmony.

Can anyone suggest some traditional Jazz songs that use a lot of Jazz Melodic Minor exclusively?

Sorry about the long post. I have finally made it to the point in which I am doing little improvisations and am writing my own songs. I realize that Jazz Melodic Minor is one of the defining scales for a "real" Jazz player to be able to effectively manipulate.

Any input is welcome, even the jokes

.

**bako** · 05-27-2012, 12:41 AM

Try this progression (4th cycle C melodic minor).
Improvise using the C melodic minor scale.

X C X B Eb G---CmMa7

X X Eb A C F---F7

X B Eb A D X---B7#9

X B Eb G D X---EbMa7+

A Eb G C X X---Am7b5

X D F C D X---Dm7

G X F B D X---G7

X C Eb B D X---CmMa9

**Rich Cochrane** · 05-27-2012, 04:58 AM

Personally I don't use it often over m7 chords but I like it a lot on Major 7th chords. Now the upper part sounds consonant and the lower part adds the b3 blue note. Try it & see what you think.

**AlsoRan** · 05-27-2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Try this progression (4th cycle C melodic minor).
Improvise using the C melodic minor scale.

X C X B Eb G---CmMa7

X X Eb A C F---T7

X B Eb A D X---B7#9

X B Eb G D X---EbMa7+

A Eb G C X X---Am7b5

X D F C D X---Dm7

G X F B D X---G7

X C Eb B D X---CmMa9

Thanks bako. Since you spelled out the voicings, I can see how the Melodic Minor notes are consonant with each chord and I recognize the chord substitutions.

**fep** · 05-27-2012, 09:48 AM

I think the melodic minor is much more useful over other chords.

I currently use it most over a V7alt chord, in this context it's also known as the altered scale. It is the 7th mode of the melodic minor.

For instance over G7alt you would play Ab melodic minor which is also known as the G altered scale.

Ab melodic minor = Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G

G altered = G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F = R b9 #9 3 b5 #5 7 = a whole lot of altered notes but still firmly rooted in G7 as it has the root 3rd and 7th of G7

So it's a melodic minor scale but you shift your reference to think/hear the G as the root.

Another place I really like it is over a minor chord when a IV chord goes to a IV minor (like in Misty and a lot of other tunes). Try playing notes from a Maj7 arp over the IV and then notes from the melodic minor over the IVm. I really like that sound.

The Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Joe Elliott Study Group that we started is going to soon get heavily into melodic minor. There are several chapters on it in that book. It's a very practical book which is weighted heavily on exercises. Perhaps you might want to join in.

**monk** · 05-27-2012, 10:14 AM

AlsoRan,
The "traditional" use of the jazz melodic minor has been to use the scale as a pool of notes to draw from when playing dominant seventh chords. The most often used applications are the fourth mode, Lydian Dominant, and the seventh mode, Super Locrian. These are the sounds that began to crop up in the bebop era. In the post-bop years, other uses started to emerge but the ones I've suggested are easy to hear and get into your fingers.

Since you come from a blues background, I would suggest that you listen to Help the Poor on Robben Ford's Talk to Your Daughter CD. In his solo, Ford uses a Super Locrian sound over the A7 in measure 8 of the second chorus of his solo and a Lydian Dominant sound for A7 in measures 7 & 8 of the fourth chorus (I'm counting the 8 bar bridge as the third chorus).

Regards,
monk

**AlsoRan** · 05-27-2012, 10:57 AM

Thanks again for the responses. In hindsight, I see some flaws in my question. The main flaw is that since Jazz Harmony tends to be dynamic rather than static, seeking to use melodic minor only is more of a rock approach, since they tend to use only one or two scales. I have learned at least this much on the forum.

I can see now I had one of my "senior moments."

Mr. fep,
While that study group looks attractive, my life has not quite settled down enough to allow me to join in productively, although I did buy the book a while back and will lurk.

**MaxPicks** · 05-27-2012, 11:55 AM

If you really want to get a grip on the MM and its uses I cannot recommend John Stowell`s Truefire Course `Advanced Jazz Improvisation` highly enough. It`ll be the best 30 bucks you ever speant.

**AlsoRan** · 05-27-2012, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by MaxPicks

If you really want to get a grip on the MM and its uses I cannot recommend John Stowell`s Truefire Course `Advanced Jazz Improvisation` highly enough. It`ll be the best 30 bucks you ever speant.

I looked up a few videos of Stowell on YouTube and I like what he had to say.

I have already been doing what he recommends, and that's a thorough knowledge of the fretboard map of Melodic Minor notes.

I will investigate him further.

**AlsoRan** · 05-27-2012, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by monk

AlsoRan,
The "traditional" use of the jazz melodic minor has been to use the scale as a pool of notes to draw from when playing dominant seventh chords. The most often used applications are the fourth mode, Lydian Dominant, and the seventh mode, Super Locrian. These are the sounds that began to crop up in the bebop era. In the post-bop years, other uses started to emerge but the ones I've suggested are easy to hear and get into your fingers.

Light bulb moment!

Learning MM opens the door to the use of several important modes that are very much a part of playing Jazz using MM. I did not consider that, either.

Thanks.

**AlsoRan** · 05-27-2012, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by fep

The Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Joe Elliott Study Group that we started is going to soon get heavily into melodic minor. There are several chapters on it in that book. It's a very practical book which is weighted heavily on exercises. Perhaps you might want to join in.

You have done it again, fep.

I looked into this book and got very excited about the large section it dedicates to the Melodic Minor scale and its modes!

I have got to tell you, I have many books and this promises to be the best on introducing met to Melodic Minor. Exciting stuff!

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-28-2012, 11:50 AM

This has been one of the better melodic minor video tutorials on the web for years. It's all about it's primary function as a source for use with dom7alt tension.

**AlsoRan** · 05-28-2012, 03:41 PM

That DVD has been sitting for over a year and a half at a local music shop. I am going to buy it today! Thanks.

**boatheelmusic** · 05-29-2012, 07:05 AM

I think you would really like Don Mock's "Secrets of Melodic Minor" book and accompanying CD.

Many usages spelled out and demonstrated.

**Rich Cochrane** · 05-29-2012, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

I think you would really like Don Mock's "Secrets of Melodic Minor" book and accompanying CD.

+1 -- very handy book.

I like some of the lines here, especially when we get to mixing the Melodic Minor with other scales. Might help you get the sound into your ears:

**AlsoRan** · 05-29-2012, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rich Cochrane

+1 -- very handy book.

I like some of the lines here, especially when we get to mixing the Melodic Minor with other scales. Might help you get the sound into your ears:

Ha! ha! You folks have got me loaded down again so I will be busy for a while viewing this info.

I do love John Stowell's lines and that is my only gripe against Don Mock's Melodic Minor Revealed book - his guitar lines were more of a Jazz Rock sound. It does have a lot of great information.

I have his book and am taking what I can from it. I have a break coming up next week and I am taking this information with me to "woodshed" on it.

**Sandro** · 05-29-2012, 07:04 PM

I don't know if you know about this videos of Emily Remler about MM.

Sandro

**kenbennett** · 05-29-2012, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Rich Cochrane

Personally I don't use it often over m7 chords but I like it a lot on Major 7th chords. Now the upper part sounds consonant and the lower part adds the b3 blue note. Try it & see what you think.

Brilliant!

**wizard3739** · 05-30-2012, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

This has been one of the better melodic minor video tutorials on the web for years. It's all about it's primary function as a source for use with dom7alt tension.

good one, Gumbo!

wiz

**Philco** · 05-30-2012, 03:05 AM

Dixon Nacey totally sorted it out for me.
He makes it sound like music.

Check number 4 first if you want to hear a cool application of MM.
Then you can go back and build it off the chords......which is an approach a lot of teachers miss.
This guy grooves.

**Rich Cochrane** · 06-01-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

build it off the chords......which is an approach a lot of teachers miss.

These were great. The idea of breaking a scale out into harmonized triads and sevenths literally revolutionised my approach when I first learned it. I also like his attitude to "secondary thinking" in the last vid -- far too many teachers encourage this way of thinking even though, assuming they're decent players, they probably don't do it themselves.

Some of the patterns he's playing with arps in #3 are very tasty; might have to work on some of those. Thanks for posting these!

**e_del** · 06-01-2012, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

... I am having trouble getting my ears to really embrace it. I come from a Rock and Blues background and I have found that most of the music I hear in my head is, of course, Minor Pentatonic, Blues Scale, and the Major and Natural Minor scales. I know this because I write down the melodies in my head and these scales, or pool of notes, are consistent there.

So getting back to my question, when I play melodic minor only, over a vamping chord such as A minor, I have found that I tend to stay on the lower part of the scale - notes 1, 2, b3, 4 and 5

just a brief suggestion, that's part of my personal experience (but not automatically a good one!)

I just went by a youtube video about a jazz improv workshow

(part 1-5)

Amongst various other things, there is explained why the minor pentatonic works well on various minor scales... I think it's worth having a peek...

About your rock and blues background (that I think a big portion of us guitarists have), I'd suggest to practice over extended/altered chords vamps. A7b9b13, or at least AmMaj7... things like that...

This way you should realise that to fit the new alterations introduced, and to be consistent with the 'color' of the harmony, the melodic minor scale is more suitable... at least it worked for me that way! :-)

Enrico

**AlsoRan** · 06-03-2012, 12:03 AM

All great stuff, folks. Lots to think about and consider.

Thanks, again.

**tytlfamily** · 06-23-2012, 05:11 PM

Hey, this was a great thread....always mystified by the MM scale, but sorta making sense now. Now being able to apply it.....well, that's another story!

**AmundLauritzen** · 06-23-2012, 06:08 PM

To those not accustomed to the sound of the melodic minor scale, the last two notes are the most dissonant: the major 6th and the major 7th.
In C melodic minor, that's A and B.

A good exercise is to play to a melodic minor vamp and improvise very economically. Don't play fast but let the notes ring! Move your melodies into the major 6th and the major 7th, let the note hang for a while and move out of it.
After a while, your ear will get accustomed to the sound of the scale. Our western ears are saturated by the first part of the scale. It's deep in our system by default because it's found in all minor key music.

The last part, the major 6th and major 7th are not. So why not isolate the problem area and work on it intensively?
That's a way I love to practice. Whenever I work on a new scale, I emphasize the part of the scale that has a combination of intervals that is foreign to me.

A good example is comparing the whole tone scale in G: G,A,B,C#,D#,F
to G mixolydian: G,A,B,C,D,E,F. There are only two notes that are new to us if we only knew mixolydian and wanted to learn the whole tone scale.
So in that case, when I'd improvise over a G7#5 vamp with the whole tone scale, I'll let my melodies hang on the C# and D# and improvise in and out of those intervals to train my ear to hear these new sounds.

This is a great principle to keep in mind because it helps you cut to the chase when you learn something new!

I hope it helps