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I've been shedding a lot of Parker and a few other standards in attempts to be able to outline chords more effectively. Lately 3 main inspirations are dictating my practice schedule.
1. Pat Metheny's Bootlegged Lesson:
I'm sure many of you have listened to this lesson where Pat really drives home to his student that he needs to outline the changes more, and in a more rhythmical way. When I first made the switch from classical guitar to working on Jazz this lesson really hit me hard, cause I noticed when I listened to Parker, everything sounded so seamless and outlined the changes. There is a segment of these lessons where Pat demonstrates soloing with just playing changes and imitating this practice seems to help tremendously.
2. Bert Ligon's Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony: I started using this method about a year ago and found it to be great, it can be tough to make it sound original, but I find that there is quite a lot of material that can be made when you take enclosures/approach tones into account.
3. Ed Byrne - I haven't had the chance to purchase his method's yet but his philosiphy and lesson samples has given me a lot to work and inspiration for other things to work on. Outlining melody tones in a solo is simple and genius. Another great tip I found was to work on everything by singing it. I notice if I can sing the line it is way more melodic and I can avoid playing things that are purely mechanical. I've been singing everything as I play it and my voice seems closer to the source of musical creations vs my fingers ( if that makes sense)
My practice routine has been something like this:
playing through standards with an emphasis on Parker tunes rotating between the song melody and an improvised solo. I'll play the melody after each solo because it really stamps the harmony back into my head in-case i've strayed from it due to a fumble.
Singing/Playing Triads over the changes. Sometimes just singing or just playing, and trying to connect the triads interestingly. The triads aren't always based off of the root. I've been doing this over Giant Steps, even though I feel that tune is a little too harmonically rich for me at the moment, I fully understand the reasoning behind all of the changes and the song structure, I just don't have the changes in my bones yet.
and finally i've been recording myself sing over an aebersold/original recorded set of changes, and then transcribing what i'm recording afterwards to see how often i'm naturally landing on chord tones and creating interesting lines. This has been an amazing tool, I can't even describe how fast i've improved because of this.
After a few months of this I seem to be plateauing with my improvement, at first it was very rapid, and noticeable. For example I have no problem playing over ii-V's but I'm really having a hard time getting chromatically descending ii-V's into my head aren't satisfying me. The lines I make over these descending ii-V's. They seem to be everywhere too! Like in Satin Doll:
Dm G7 | Dm G7 |
Em A7 | Em A7 |
Am D7 | Abm Db7 | The melody right here between these
Cmaj Dm | Em A7
Am D7 | Abm Db7 | The melody right here between these changes sounds so natural and simple. I'm trying not to take the easy way out and just repeat the line I played in the first bar down a step, although sometimes it can be a nice effect.
I think the problem is that I don't have the harmony from this in my head enough but I seem to have hit a wall. Any suggested exercises or changes in my practicing, other than listening, for really getting changes into my head?
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10-16-2012 12:05 AM
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When you are soloing over the bvi bII7 what pool of notes are you drawing from? Triads and chromatic connecting notes or AbMM or Db alt? Or is choice of notes not the problem, just the 1/2 symmetry?
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the note choice isn't a problem, it's making the line sound natural, cause the symmetry is throwing me off. I'm having the same problem with blues for alice.
F
Em A7
Dm G7
Cm F7
Bb7
Bbm Eb7
Am7 D7 I have no problems outlining the chords up until these
Abm7 Db7 two bars. It's like I run out of ideas how to sow the tones
etccc
i've just gotten used to connecting tones in progressions that move in 4ths, 3rds, and 2nds, but not a set of ii-V's moving like chromatically like that. And again, same problem with rhythm changes being tritone subbed.
F G7
Gb7 F7
I have problems resolving into, and going out of that Gb7. I know which pool of notes I should be using, scale wise and chord wise but it's like I just don't have the harmony of that chord in my head enough to make a line over it. I can sing lines over the basic rhythm changes even if I make a minor chord into a dominant, but I fall apart with those tri subbed chords.
One exception seems to be when I sub a V for bII7#11, I can hear that decently well and I can pull it off. In my solo I'll almost always use some variation of the 5th of that bII7#11 going to 5th of the I chord, which is just like the melody of satin doll, and something I've seen done by other players.
I've been transcribing improvistations of parker, rollins, and pass ( in his unstruction) playing over these changes to try to get this down
Sorry for the long posts, this has just beat eating me up day after day!
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Sounds like you're doing great, man. Keep on the path.
Originally Posted by euterpe
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You might find it helpful to practice the descending half step II V's at the extreme level, a progression cycling through 12 keys.
Perhaps also the reverse of ascending half step II V's in a similar fashion.
I agree with Mike, good stuff going on in your house.
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euterpe, we seem to have a similar background, coming from classical guitar. I'm also working on many of the same tunes and ideas, although you've definitely taken your improv work to a higher level. It sound like you are already "on the path". One thing Bergonzi says on his DVDs is to "be patient with yourself". This stuff takes time.
On a practical level you could work out inversions at various fretboard locations and string groupings to voice lead through the chromatic ii/V sequences. Then base your improv note choices on the tones in these shapes also applying approach notes and chromatic passing tones for interest.
Also, don't forget both close and open voiced chords as as well as the use of double stops and other "vertical harmonic mashups" as part of improv.
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Hey euterpe,as already mentioned you seem to be doing some good stuff aleady.The only thing i did not see you talk about is playing tunes while only running the arpeggios,switching to the nearest tone on the next arp each time the chord changes.As you seem to think that you are having trouble getting the harmony into your bones,this might be a good exercize for this.I think the book"An introduction to jazz soloing"is a good book that uses this kind of approach.
Last edited by ECHOPLEX; 10-18-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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I was just about to say that same thing as ECHOPLEX.
Try working with chord tones/arpeggios only, outlining the changes until it becomes second nature. After 20 years of playing I've gone back to working on this, and it's really helped my improvisation become more solid.
An introduction to jazz soloing, as mentioned, is a great book that describes how to practice this. Good luck.
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Thanks Dana,nice to know i am not giving out poor advice.Even though i hav been a session musician for all my working life ,i have never considered myself as having the right qualitys for being a teacher,as i strtuggle to get my point across sometimes.Although there are a few teachers out there who could also do with realizing this as well.Playing jazz guitar is one skill teaching it is another.Ok rant over.
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Agreed...Sorry it took so long to get back to you euterpe...Bako made some great suggestions...Transcribing and analyzing the vocab is an excellent endeavor as well...Keep at it man, I feel with your serious ethic/approach you will overcome this hurdle sooner than later...We all struggle with the same ideas at one time or another...This is where the true gems reach out to you and the hard work starts to pay off in new ways... Originally Posted by mike walker
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Thanks for the replies guys, I thought I stumped you guys cause I was getting no replies. I definitely am seeing improvement each and everyday, and the comments really help me stay on track. I really need to get more involved with the jazz community in my area.
Over the past few days I transcribed a few of Parkers solo's from blues for alice, took soo long! and checked out exactly what he was doing over these changes and it really helped!
In my super long post I didn't mention this is something I've been doing as well. I was doing it with seventh chords, but i've found it really useful to do it with basic triads and just use triads for any extensions. This is something I thought I had mastered, but by noticing the power of it, I am going back to getting all triad types completely down. Maj,min, dim, aug, complete. For example I know Gb, Ab, Db, and F# but they don't click as fast as the others do.ECHOPLEX
Hey euterpe,as already mentioned you seem to be doing some good stuff aleady.The only thing i did not see you talk about is playing tunes while only running the arpeggios,switching to the nearest tone on the next arp each time the chord changes.As you seem to think that you are having trouble getting the harmony into your bones,this might be a good exercize for this.I think the book"An introduction to jazz soloing"is a good book that uses this kind of approach.
Something big happened yesterday though. I got Bergonzi's Melodic Structures book a few days ago and he drills in using 1 2 3 5 over major chords ad 1 3 4 5 over minor chords. This one extra note, either the 9th on maj, or 11th on minor, opens up a world of possibilities. I felt with just the triad I could be pretty melodic and outline the changes. But that one extra note can make it seem like you're playing a scale and outlining the chords at the same time. Plus if you juggle these notes around that extra tone adds a lot of really cool intervallic possiblities. This approach has been such a blessing! I'm inclined to grab all of Bergonzi's stuff! (I'm going to end up waiting until i've absorbed this book more though)
Another topic I wanted to discuss more is Bergonzi's views on Visualization but I think I'll start a new thread for it/check if there already is one
Thanks again for the comments, it is extremely helpful to have people give there 2 cents as I'm doing a lot of work to get prepped for Jazz studies next year
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Hey enterpe... and anyone else who has this problem...
There is a difference between memorizing mechanical methods of playing through, under , over etc... and understanding what your playing through and applying a method....
I'm always preaching these basic concepts... and it never seem to sink in or most don't seem to understand.
When you memorize what to play over changes... as compared to Understanding what your playing over and choose to apply a method of playing.
They're different concepts of approaching soloing... almost all aspects of playing...
The walls or difficulties never happen until tempos or difficult harmonic changes come up... It's one of the major reason most player have difficulty with improve in general.
You need to change your approach to playing jazz. Classical teaching methods don't work...
Reg
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Thanks for the advice Reg
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I think we'd be able to give you better advice if you posted some recordings, in particular the "unnatural" sounding spots. The other thing is we often have a much different perception of our own playing than others do. I've had potential students talk to me on the phone / email, and tell me all this advanced jazz stuff they were doing and I was like thinking to myself "oh crap, I better be really well prepared with some advanced stuff for this guy when I first meet him." And then when we meet, it turns out they can't even play the basic major scale up the entire neck or more than 1 voicing for a major 7 chord....And they are wanting me to show them all the advanced tricks. Rule #1, to learn the advanced stuff you first have to have your basic stuff 100% solid. Don't get me wrong it's not that I doubt your honesty, but a recording of your playing will tell us all 10x more about what you are able to do, then you typing a long post about what you are able to do. You may think the problems you are having are a really advanced concept, but it may be something fundamental.
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All good stuff. Take your time on this stuff. Don't cram it. Originally Posted by euterpe
Each concept needs time to get into your musical bloodstream.
Don't do it in a desperate need to 'move on' to another concept.
All the concepts you are alluding to have potential to help with Fretboard navigation, Chord tone impro, and ear training etc...
Be careful not to stem melodic flow with too much information.
You want to express yourself with this stuff.
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Hey euterpe... do you understand what I'm trying to explain. Originally Posted by euterpe
When you comp or solo... anyway you fill the physical space. Unless your spontaneously creating... with no reference or RELATIONSHIPS.
What your hearing or playing does have relationships. In your example of difficulty playing over contiguous or sequenced II V's... what your trying to hear or play only works... if there is some type of relationship between the changes and what your playing.
When you memorize mechanical methods of playing through changes... whether it's chord scales, chord tones or arpeggios... the relationships are simply momentary... the set of pitches are in relationship to the chord or short chord pattern. That's the concept or system of organization... you can hear or see as melodic or harmonic... it's a one dimensional mechanical relationship.
When you play jazz... very rarely do the changes stay the same. And there are generally melodic or harmonic concepts... jazz concepts being implied by both the soloist and players comping. Mechanical skills cover very few of them.
I know most teach and say... hear what your playing, keep practicing the technical skills... and it will come... But if you don't hear what your playing over, and that usually means... some type of harmonic understanding... it won't ever happen.
You can get to the point where you have enough memorized mechanical skills to cover some situations... as long as they're simple and not too fast... but that's usually it. I'm taking for granted your not a prodigy.
Sorry to somewhat single you out... My comments are directed to most on this forum. Your example was just one of the classic examples...
If you want more advice from this direction or school of playing jazz. I'll gladly help... or if doesn't sound right for you, no problems... I can also help with the method your using now...
Reg
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What's with all... the elipses?
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thanks jazzadelic, I'll get a video posted in the next couple of days that's a great idea.
Reg I've checked out a lot of your video's and I like your style and really appreciate your input in this matter.
I just want to clarify what you said though.
Are you basically getting at listening more to what I'm doing over changes/having the changes ingrained in my head?I know most teach and say... hear what your playing, keep practicing the technical skills... and it will come... But if you don't hear what your playing over, and that usually means... some type of harmonic understanding... it won't ever happen.
You can get to the point where you have enough memorized mechanical skills to cover some situations... as long as they're simple and not too fast... but that's usually it.
I was watching a video of a Jazz Prof saying that most people have problems soloing over changes simply because they dont have the sound of the changes in their head enough to begin with.
I'm not overly tied down to any particular method i've just selected these cause they've been recommended by players I enjoy listening to.
I'm very interested in getting more intput in your school of thought. And don't worry I don't feel singled out at all, you're kind enough to share your ideas and I am more than happy to take any critisism or recommendations you may have.
So lets say I want to go in your direction/school, what can I/others do to get closer to what you're describing
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So Reg, this is my example to 'decode' what you're saying as I understand it: Originally Posted by Reg
Learning chord scales, or arpeggios, or chord tones, is a predominantly mechanical, fixed thing. They work based on fixed harmonic structures.
Jazz, however, is an organic thing, that changes as it's played, either due to reharmonization or substitutions within the rhythm section, whatever, which means that the chord scales et al, which are generally learned and practiced with regards to a fixed progression can lose their context based on the music, which results in the player getting lost, or making bad musical choices.
That correct?
euterpe:
I'm in a similar boat. I'm working on connecting the chord tones, working the changes, and adding extensions. In terms of extensions, I generally think of 'chord types' and have organized all of the 12 notes in the chromatic scale into a line from 'least dissonant' to 'most dissonant' and such. So, when I'm playing, I can say 'I want this to be a really inside line, I'll stick to the least dissonant extensions...' or whatever. Another good thing is that it gets me listening to and recognizing the extensions/nonchord tones with reference to the chord that's being played.
Not sure if this will help, but once you've gotten past just connecting the chord tones and the arps, that might be something to look at.
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Hey euterpe and shadow...
So Shadow's decode.. is cool and breaks down the use of the techniques and how relationships between those techniques and what being used with.... your improve and what your improving over.
Which is part of what I'm trying to express... So the other part is being aware of what jazz concepts are being used to frame the use of all those techniques over the tune.
The reasons why you choose to connect those chord tones, non-chord tones...whatever techniques.
Mechanical relationships generally reflect tonal implications. Tonal implications... are not fixed in jazz. The same set of changes can have a few set of tonal implications... different mechanical relationships.
Those "fixed progressions", I like that... anyway there are many standard interpretations of fixes progressions.
My school of though, well not mine personally, the method I've always followed... The how I approach.... playing and learning how to play. How I understand all those techniques... the scales, chord tones etc... I learn or become aware of the Context or Concept... and then mechanically practice the techniques... all in relationship to that context or concept.
I learn or become aware of... "The Form Of" before I become aware of the "Form IN".
The standard teaching practice it to teach the parts... and then try and fit them in... develop technique and then plug and play... but with the technique being the point of reference... These are general comments... but think about how you approach playing....
Reg
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Reg.Please expand more on "fixed progressions" ie.many standard interpretations of fixed progressions.What are you implying?
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Reg, you sound so vauge at times, like a true master of his craft! Reminds me of the pat martino instructionals ( no offence to you if he's not your cup of tea!) But I think I'm starting to see what you mean.
I think what you're getting at is that if I'm soloing over a tune and have mechanically memorized certain patterns/tools to play over it, that isn't enough because as the music unfolds the changes have different harmonic implications vs if they were played static in the practice room
This is a progression in a method i've been practice improvising over,:
Cmaj7 / / /
Fm / Bb7 /
Cmaj7 / / /
etc
Reg, I think what you're saying is somewhat related to this:
Tune # 1, The progression I want to play over, starts with:
Cmaj7 / / / Fm / Bb7 / Cmaj7 / / / etc
Tune # 2 (ie what goes on in the mechanical practice room) starts with
Fm / Bb7 etc.
Are you getting at in practice room I'm hearing the Fm / Bb7 as it's own entity and not being related to C?.
Or in tune #1 it's like im hearing C: I / / / biv - bVII7
but tune #2 im hearing Eb: ii - V7
I know that the rhythmic placement of the changes in context to the form totally affects how they are percieved. When I play over those changes in Tune #1, I naturally want to resolve to Cmajor even if I outline the changes in that ii-V cause I know where it's resolving to. But it's not always the case with ii - V's
Reg is that what you meant by saying:
I saw one of your comping videos where you keep targeting a Cmin9 and you're often using alterted V's to get back to it or approaching it by step, Dbmin9. You went on to say you can pretty much do anything to get there cause you know what you're targeting/resolving too. There was one example where you literally just approached it by Ebmin9 - Dmin9 - Dbmin9 and it sounded greatI learn or become aware of... "The Form Of" before I become aware of the "Form IN".
Again thanks for your help, it is amazing that someone with your skills is so generous with sharing his ideas
ps I think it's about time this forum makes a Reg icon
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Here's a clip of my solo over that progression. The recording quality isn't the greatest but it'll do!
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Hey jazzuke... Originally Posted by jazzuki
Fixed progressions was term Shadow of the sun used... And I liked it.
Simply meaning constant or same tonal interpretation of what changes your playing over.
Example being D-7, B7, Bb7,A7... the changes imply the same analysis over and over... each chord keeps the same implied analysis which implies a constant set of pitches. You can use melodic ornamentation, embellishments or other melodic approaches... but always with same reference to changes.
There was a post about accessing altered pitches through voice leading by Scott Cook... very cool and was perfect example of using fixed progression concept.
What I'm implying is that most of the players on this forum approach playing jazz from this prospective... Not good/bad or right/wrong but not how I approach. And that this approach is one of the reason many have problems covering difficult and faster jazz tunes.
I was posting about enclosures somewhere... anyway would be good example of different fixed progressions... which notes I enclose with always reflects which harmonic system I'm using. The actual analysis can be different from harmonic implications... What I'm playing always reflects my interpretation of the harmonic implication I'm playing over.
Obviously I can use melodic practice and use pedal types of applications... but I'm still aware of the melodic concept in relationship to harmonic concept as reference...
Now in actual playing... my melodic concepts do have influence on harmonic concepts... the musicians covering the changes don't play from fixed progressions... Comping is as much improve as the solo...
I'll try and make video of tune with examples... tomorrow... have wk tonight...
Reg
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Hey euterpe...
Yes your getting part of it, the jazz is about... being played live part.
The other part... what you use as guidelines for determining the notes you play.... (I know play what you hear... but before your able to play what you hear... you need to be able to hear).... anyway so the changes your playing... Ladybird, there is always a somewhat default analysis which implies a set of relationships which translates into collections of notes to solo with. The basic chord tones... whatever or how ever you choose to solo.
But there are other somewhat default analysis that can be implied and change that set of notes you use... even imply melodic style and use.
I'm going to stay simple... you can use Blue notes in an organized manor... you need a system to create that organization... or are you feeling lucky.
You can use a latin montuno style... doesn't need to be rhythmically latin... can simply use the latin harmonic implications... again you need a system to organize.
You can get into melodic minor applications... becomes very complicated... lots of options. Again without an organizing system of use... most sound like sh**
Even simple use of modal interchange becomes muddy without methods of organizing any application.
All these concepts of organization are about the complete tune... they're methods of how your interpreting the tune...
I need to go... but I'll continue and try and answer more clearly later...
Reg
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