Linking arpegios positions

[mooncef]

How important do you think is to be able to connext different arpeggios positions and play diagonaly, i'm recenty working on connecting 'em to break free of position playing !
what are some drills i can work on with metronome to enhance my arpegios fretboard knowledge , and modulations !

[princeplanet]

We each can invent our own ways of moving to a different (usually adjacent) arp off any string. Will involve a choice of guide fingering to create the shift. Some changes will be trickier than others. At times you will practice certain moves hundreds of times, only to realise there is a better way to do it. So you have to unlearn as well as relearn.

To avoid having to unlearn stuff, be very careful to suss every move to make sure it's worthy of "burning in"....

[Frank67]

I'd try to play the 'connecting game' with arps over the entire fretboard. That is from the Very useful Joe elliot book that we had a study group a few years back that, unfortunately, dissolved before we reached the end (would be fun to revive, though at this point I'd have to start over again).

So, what you do is to take a progression (say Autumn leaves or for the beginning even simpler, like Minor Swing) and you play the arps in eigth notes. When the chord change comes you play the note of the next arpeggio that is closest to the note you played last on the present arpeggio. This is important in order to become fluent and not sound mechanical (ok, it will sound mechanical at first before you start making music this way but what it is meant is to not start each arpeggio new from the root or the low e string or something like that but to smoothly connect them). It is important to play an uninterrupted string of eigth notes so that you do not pause and think about the next arpeggio.

In the Elliot book it happens position by position nut it is, of course, good practice to do it over the entire fretboard. I would do triads, four note arpeggios and scales and perhaps later also incorporate chromatic passing notes. If one manages to fluently mix that it'll eventually sound really good.

here is an example from a few years back on 'all of me'.

[whiskey02]

Very important.

[fep]

I like to be aware of the chord grip under the scale and/or arpeggio that I'm playing so my playing moves up and down the neck pretty much following the chords I'd play if I was comping.

[Boston Joe]

I'd try to play the 'connecting game' with arps over the entire fretboard. That is from the Very useful Joe elliot book that we had a study group a few years back that, unfortunately, dissolved before we reached the end (would be fun to revive, though at this point I'd have to start over again).

So, what you do is to take a progression (say Autumn leaves or for the beginning even simpler, like Minor Swing) and you play the arps in eigth notes. When the chord change comes you play the note of the next arpeggio that is closest to the note you played last on the present arpeggio. This is important in order to become fluent and not sound mechanical (ok, it will sound mechanical at first before you start making music this way but what it is meant is to not start each arpeggio new from the root or the low e string or something like that but to smoothly connect them). It is important to play an uninterrupted string of eigth notes so that you do not pause and think about the next arpeggio.

In the Elliot book it happens position by position nut it is, of course, good practice to do it over the entire fretboard. I would do triads, four note arpeggios and scales and perhaps later also incorporate chromatic passing notes. If one manages to fluently mix that it'll eventually sound really good.

here is an example from a few years back on 'all of me'.

I need to do more of that kind of stuff.

[mrblues]

MY teacher told me I must learn all of the arpeggios built on chords of ionian, melodic minor, harmonic minor modes. Thats not much, but the goal is to learn those from the low "E", and "A" strings, from "wall-to-wall" and I should start all those from the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes of the given chord, so this is not a 2 week task. In musical situations I must choose 1 fret, where I can play all of those, and I should connect them with passing tones. Of course If I know all the arpeggios with the above mentioned method, I can play it anywhere.

[princeplanet]

MY teacher told me I must learn all of the arpeggios built on chords of ionian, melodic minor, harmonic minor modes. Thats not much, but the goal is to learn those from the low "E", and "A" strings, from "wall-to-wall" and I should start all those from the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th notes of the given chord, so this is not a 2 week task. In musical situations I must choose 1 fret, where I can play all of those, and I should connect them with passing tones. Of course If I know all the arpeggios with the above mentioned method, I can play it anywhere.

You do realise that you should be learning everything in every position, right? Even if it's just CAGED, that's 5 ways of doing everything. t's a l-o-n-g grind, but it must be done. And that is just the beginning really. There's a lot of ground between learning the alphabet and wring the great American novel....

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think in terms of thirds in this sort of thing. A chord, any chord, can be described as a stack of thirds, so when I'm aiming to play within the confines of the chords -- but play across the neck -- I cotton back to this way of looking at it.

In practical terms, I know where the major and minor thirds are on the same string and on the two adjacent strings, and (if I'm hip and on the fly) I can spell the chord out quickly enough to grab the grip.

If it doesn't work out quite right, hey, I'm playing outside, right?

[mrblues]

Princeplanet:

Absolutely true. Thats a long, long journey, that will take a lot of time for me to get there, but I am working on it hard to reach my goals.

[TH]

The guitar fingerboard is a very complex, illogical and counter-intuitive navigation of something that should be natural: a musical line. So you've got to learn to negotiate position playing without losing your sense of note and ear.
You've got to learn really thorough ear training so you can identify pitch, note and harmonic content and know finger position at the same instant.
You've got to be aware of not only where to put your fingers but what each position can offer you in range and strength of phrase.
And you've got to learn the different directions you can travel in.
Remember that there is also traveling along one string. All the notes you encounter in your arpeggios should have a counter awareness traveling up the string.

Have you taken a look at Mick Goodrick's book The Advancing Guitar? It's not a method book but it gives an excellent and thoughtful look at the issues in learning the instrument as a musical tool.
It might not be for you if you're just looking for licks and phrases to get you through a solo and a turnaround, but I mention it because it's one of the most articulate studies of your options in learning the fingerboard as a musical tool.
He has something he calls the Realm of the Electric Ice Skating Rink. It's the goal of knowing the fingerboard so you can effortlessly create musical lines across and in any direction; not to be a slave to positions.

It's one option to be aware of. It may or may not fit with your goal of playing through arpeggios and II V I licks.
I think it's essential if you're in it for the long run of removing the limits of the instrument though.

David

[princeplanet]

...
And you've got to learn the different directions you can travel in.
Remember that there is also traveling along one string. All the notes you encounter in your arpeggios should have a counter awareness traveling up the string.
.......
the Realm of the Electric Ice Skating Rink. It's the goal of knowing the fingerboard so you can effortlessly create musical lines across and in any direction; not to be a slave to positions.
.......

David

Only a fool will argue with this time honoured advice, so here I go.....

While most Jazz guitarists I admire certainly seem to prefer the horizontal approach, I find myself staying in a given position longer than many players intentionally. I spent quite a while figuring out ways to change positions smoothly to the point where I could do it mid line without breaking flow, just by practicing pos shifts on every string. Trouble was, I found I preferred not to move around so much because the lines, patterns and devices I'm drawn to are quite positional, and sound less strong when sliding or stretching needlessly.

This is at odds with the conventional wisdom which prefers the articulation of sliding and slurring between positions for it's sound, or continuing lines on certain strings for it's timbral effect. And yes, if you listen to Wes or Raney etc you do tend to be drawn to that style of playing. But to me it's a style thing, not a rule. Quickish pattern playing (Trane, Brecker etc) relies on nanosecond decision making (if you actually improvise using them) that can only come from having notes under you fingers the way that , say, a sax player has - ie - no confusing options, you hear phrase XYZ and you instantly know where to find it. This is not being a slave to a fingering pattern, it is being a master of it! Yes, you could possibly be adept enough so that you can have 5 options between and around your current position at breakneck speed, but this ability would take far too much preparation for very little extra reward.

The listener just hears the notes, they don't (shouldn't) care how they were produced. Guitar players (especially rock/blues guys) seem endlessly impressed with players who move their hand a lot along the strings, but so few players really need to move that much for the lines they are actually creating. If you transcribe a lot of jazz lines, many of them fall within a single position, even sax or trumpet lines. If something is fast, then I go for economy first to make the damn thing at least playable, and only move if I have to to make the line sound or feel better.

Again, it's a style thing. I say don't waste time learning to shift around needlessly if positional playing can express what you want to say.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, there's a lot of value to using timbre as one input into fingering decisions, too -- both maintaining the same timbre throughout a line, as in stringwise playing, or varying it, either by playing crosswise, or shifting positions.

[princeplanet]

Well, there's a lot of value to using timbre as one input into fingering decisions, too -- both maintaining the same timbre throughout a line, as in stringwise playing, or varying it, either by playing crosswise, of shifting positions.

You are right, of course. That is why I have found a sound where my wound strings don't sound too muddy... Another thing to consider is to play in lower positions for phrases where you want the unwound string sound. When I say I try to stay in positions as much as possible, I mean for the duration of the phrase. When I begin another phrase, I'll happily shift positions if it sounds or plays better elsewhere. The trick for me is to make positions shifts between such phrases still sound continuous and connected somehow...

[Thumpalumpacus]

You are right, of course. That is why I have found a sound where my wound strings don't sound too muddy... Another thing to consider is to play in lower positions for phrases where you want the unwound string sound. When I say I try to stay in positions as much as possible, I mean for the duration of the phrase. When I begin another phrase, I'll happily shift positions if it sounds or plays better elsewhere. The trick for me is to make positions shifts between such phrases still sound continuous and connected somehow...

No doubt. I sure wasn't trying to contradict you or anything -- I think we're much more in agreement. Just fluffing my resume in applyng for the spot of Captain Obvious.

Unless we're aiming at staccato as an effect, we all want to sound fluid, I assume. For me, I work on slide-accuracy in order to be able to change position without sounding wonky -- slides are my own favored way to change position, and they even themselves provide options, because the speed of the slide provides another dynamic to play with; slow sounds dramatic, fast, less fussy.

Like you, I tend to keep phrasing inside a position, but there's value to using stringwise motion to both maintain momentum in the phrase and change position at the same time, especially combined with hammers and pulls.

[bako]

Only a fool will argue with this time honoured advice, so here I go.....

A true fool acts without considering the parameters involved.
You fail to meet that criteria.

In that we are all not trying to do the same thing, it would be foolish to think that there is
one grand solution for every intention.

[christianm77]

To the OP.

Octaves and one octave chord shapes are you friends.