Improvising over minor(b6) chords

**colleen** · 01-08-2017, 12:47 PM

Hello all,
I'm new to this website, so sorry if this is an obvious question. However i'm currently learning Iris, by Wayne Shorter, and I'm wondering what scale will work over Bb-(b6)? I'm confused over which minor scale to use, or if there is a mode that will work nicely over this (as almost every other chord that I've played over has a nicely corresponding mode)

Thank you in advance,
Colleen

**MarkInLA** · 01-08-2017, 07:28 PM

Hi. I'm not familiar with the Shorter piece. But it doesn't really matter except that depending in what key one is in will determine the scale to be used for all chords involved..
A Bb-6 is usually a sub for Eb9 except the Eb (root) is eliminated. When I see this situation I usually play the scale which begins on the 6th of the chord (G in this case. The reason is that the G is the maj 3rd of the Eb9 (which Bb-6 is taken out of) and is the leading tone of Ab (Maj or Min.) It's the same as going from E(3rd) of a C Maj. chord into F Maj. or Min. chord or scale. You here though are looking for the leading tone of Ab which is G....NOW, depending on whether the ensuing Ab (chord or scale/key center is Maj or Min. mode is how you play through your Bb-6 (remember, Bb-6 is a sub for Eb7/Eb9/Eb b9/Eb Alt./Aug. and other possibilities. SO, whilst in the Bb-6 measure(s) you likely should be playing one of the Ab scales...PHeeeeeeeeeew !
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a doctor. I just play one on TV..........M

**jasaco** · 01-08-2017, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by MarkInLA

A Bb-6 is usually a sub for Eb9 except the Eb (root) is eliminated. When I see this situation I usually play the scale which begins on the 6th of the chord (G in this case. The reason is that the G is the maj 3rd of the Eb9 (which Bb-6 is taken out of) and is the leading tone of Ab (Maj or Min.)

If I understood the question correctly, you are not asking about soloing over Bbm6; rather you want a Bbm with a flatted 6th, in other words a Gb, not a G natural. Am I correct? That would lead to a different answer than Mark's above. It's above my pay grade to provide an authoritative answer but my money's on Aeolian (12b345b6b7)...

**christianm77** · 01-08-2017, 08:06 PM

The dorian flat 6 scale, or the melodic minor b6.

Mode II of the lydian natural 4 and mode VI of the lydian augmented natural 4th scale respectively.

;-)

**jasaco** · 01-08-2017, 08:10 PM

I knew that. Of course I knew that. Why would you think I didn't know that...?

**pingu** · 01-08-2017, 08:35 PM

To the OP
Hi Colleen , welcolm !

Ignore these guys they're jesting with you

Bb Aolian
has a min 3rd and a b6 so would fit ...

(But do listen the the notes Wayne plays
over it in the melody and in improv
and suss it out from there)

**pingu** · 01-08-2017, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The dorian flat 6 scale, or the melodic minor b6.

Mode II of the lydian natural 4 and mode VI of the lydian augmented natural 4th scale respectively.
;-)

You're a very naughty boy !

**princeplanet** · 01-09-2017, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The dorian flat 6 scale, or the melodic minor b6.

.....
;-)

I think you mean MM b6b7

**mathieu76** · 01-09-2017, 08:30 AM

Play the m7b5 arpeggio 3 semitones below the root of m6 chord.

Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

**matt.guitarteacher** · 01-09-2017, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by jasaco

If I understood the question correctly, you are not asking about soloing over Bbm6; rather you want a Bbm with a flatted 6th, in other words a Gb, not a G natural. Am I correct? That would lead to a different answer than Mark's above. It's above my pay grade to provide an authoritative answer but my money's on Aeolian (12b345b6b7)...

Originally Posted by pingu

To the OP
Hi Colleen , welcolm !

Ignore these guys they're jesting with you

Bb Aolian
has a min 3rd and a b6 so would fit ...

(But do listen the the notes Wayne plays
over it in the melody and in improv
and suss it out from there)

Holy crap. This thread. Colleen is going to quit. Anyway, welcome to the forum. The above two answers are it. If you're trying to learn anything, ignore all theothers. :-)

(There's a crazy synergistic combination of unintended mistakes and good-natured ribbing in the other answers to this thread.)

Colleen, can we ask what the tune is and/or what the other melody notes are which go over this chord? What's the preceding chord? That would really help with the answer as well. Shorter can be tricky if you're new to some of this stuff.

**ragman1** · 01-09-2017, 10:00 AM

Colleen -

Nice Irish name...

Don't answer questions. If they know the tune, they know. If they don't, they don't.

I like going to the horse's mouth. There's only one live version by Wayne Shorter on You Tube and nothing on Spotify. So I've listened to that one.

First, the tune starts in Fm and ends on a Db7 with no key signature. The mb6 chord is in bar 14 and is a C#mb6. So presumably when you say Bbmb6 you're playing it in a different key.

Second, the soloist on that WS version either arpeggiates a C#m chord or does a chromatic run. Either way it's basically an A major scale - or mode thereof. After all, the mb6 chord here is essentially diatonic, right?

BUT, the piano player is putting in the #11 on both go-rounds. That means E major or mode thereof. So you'd probably get more mileage out of that.

Hope that helps.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-09-2017, 11:14 AM

I don't think Wayne ever recorded it under his own name, but the "famous" version is on Miles' E.S.P.

pingu and ragman are giving good advice...gotta listen to the tune. Melody is super important in Shorter tunes, because the chords aren't always "functional."

**Binyomin** · 01-09-2017, 11:51 AM

If you put a flat 6 on top of a minor triad you get an inversion of a Major 7 chord. The flat 6 itself is the root in that case. Right?

**ragman1** · 01-09-2017, 11:59 AM

Yes. C#mb6 is AM7/C#. That's why it's basically A maj unless you want to play it lydian.

**ragman1** · 01-09-2017, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't think Wayne ever recorded it under his own name, but the "famous" version is on Miles' E.S.P.

Yes, but I found this:

**christianm77** · 01-09-2017, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I think you mean MM b6b7

The 7 works either way

**MarkInLA** · 01-09-2017, 06:32 PM

[QUOTE=pingu;728218]To the OP
Hi Colleen , welcolm !

Ignore these guys they're jesting with you
Bb Aolian
has a min 3rd and a b6 so would fit ...

(But do listen the the notes Wayne plays
over it in the melody and in improv
and suss it out from there)[/QUOTE

Now hear this Pingu ! I (we) deeply resent your telling Colleen I am "jesting with" her ! I poured my guts out for 45 minutes explaining the properties she's likely dealing with. There is no sarcasm in my post whatsoever !! OK ? So please shut your mouth about us out here. It's, in fact, your explanation which has no immediate logic to it as far as why/where/how she should use it. At least I laid it out fully to her instead of just throwing a mode name at her !.......... You dig me !?...M

**christianm77** · 01-09-2017, 07:46 PM

I was the bad jokey man

**christianm77** · 01-09-2017, 07:46 PM

I can't believe I did a joke in music theory. I really need to get out more.

**ragman1** · 01-09-2017, 07:55 PM

Colleen, they're fighting over you. How sweet :-)

**pingu** · 01-09-2017, 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=MarkInLA;728525]

Originally Posted by pingu

To the OP
Hi Colleen , welcolm !

Ignore these guys they're jesting with you
Bb Aolian
has a min 3rd and a b6 so would fit ...

(But do listen the the notes Wayne plays
over it in the melody and in improv
and suss it out from there)[/QUOTE

Now hear this Pingu ! I (we) deeply resent your telling Colleen I am "jesting with" her ! I poured my guts out for 45 minutes explaining the properties she's likely dealing with. There is no sarcasm in my post whatsoever !! OK ? So please shut your mouth about us out here. It's, in fact, your explanation which has no immediate logic to it as far as why/where/how she should use it. At least I laid it out fully to her instead of just throwing a mode name at her !.......... You dig me !?...M

OK Mark , I do dig you ....
Sorry , I wasn't referring to yourself ....

I made a blanket statement ,
I should've said "ignore some of these guys
they're jesting"
It wasn't meant for you man

**jasaco** · 01-09-2017, 11:06 PM

Well, I did make one post in jest (#5) but only after posting what appears to be the correct answer earlier in #3, so I ain't takin' it back!

**princeplanet** · 01-09-2017, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

Well, I did make one post in jest (#5) but only after posting what appears to be the correct answer earlier in #3, so I ain't takin' it back!

Yes correct, #5 and #3 are notes totally consistent with Aoelian, and highly recommended.

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-09-2017, 11:58 PM

Just curious ... I ought to listen to the Shorter piece, but I haven't yet.

In the past, I have usually seen a minor b6 as a passing chord between m and m6. So, for example, you have a Dm triad, and you raise the A to a Bb and then to a B.

I'm confident that Shorter didn't just do that.

But, in Brazilian music you often see m7#5. So, for example, you play x57522 (or just x55522 and use a 4th).

Toninho Horta, just to drop a name, uses this chord a lot. Maybe it isn't just Brazilians.

In any case, the underlying scale, I suppose would be a little different, since this one has no 5, but has a #5 and might have a 6.

An example D E F G Bb B C would seem to be a good scale for Dm7#5.

Whereas, D E F G A Bb C would seem to be a good scale for Dm(b6).

The second one is simply D Aoelian as was already pointed out.

The first one, though has a m3 interval in the middle. And, then it has three notes which are half steps. So, it is beyond my ability to name a scale without electronic help.

Maybe I should have written D E F G Bb B C# and called it Dm(#5).

Turns out one is a B dorian b2. Another is 7/8 of a HW.

None of this naming stuff helps me figure out what, exactly, fits.

Seems to me that depends on the song. In the T Horta songs I play, I think what I usually do is play Dorian and raise the 5th. D E F G Bb B C. As soon as somebody complains, I'll edit this post.