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My question is not how to play in 5 (which I know how to do).
My question the best way to play and feel 5 AGAINST 4, with the 4 being central to proceedings.
I guess with the foot or one hand, count straight quarters 1-2-3-4.
Against that 4, count out 5 quintuplets, hitting/accenting every 4. Presumably, it would come back in unison after 5 measures/bars.
So, that's 20 counts, with hits every 4, so on the 1,5,9,13, and 17. That's your 5 to go against the 4.
Anybody got any better ideas how to implement or practice this, of playing 5 AGAINST 4?
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01-12-2017 05:41 PM
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OK, this seems to be the simplest way of doing it, I think.
Counting 12345 12345 12345 12345
The "4" is even, and hits on each "1" of the series".
The "5" goes backwards, so-to-speak: first hit is on the initial "1", then next hit is on the next "5" that appears, the next after that is on the next "4" that appears, the next hit after that is on the next "3" that appears, and the next hit is on the next "2" that appears.
So, sequentially, the 5 hits are on the 1, 5,4,3,2...
I think.
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In one measure
4/4 ||: 12345 - 12345 - 12345 - 12345 :||
In two measures
4/4 ||: 12345 - 12345 - 12345 - 12345 | 12345 - 12345 - 12345 - 12345 :||
In 5 measures of 4/4 at the quarter level
4/4 ||: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - | 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - :||
In 5 measures of 4/4 at the eighth level
4/4 ||: 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & :||
Which of these do you have in mind?
Practice suggestions (speaking as a fellow student of the subject and not one who has mastered much)
Prep work:
Practice being comfortable with different combinations of accents within quintuplet subdivision.
Practice fragments of the whole sequence.
Context:
Foot tap and clap these 5 beat figures while singing a simple 4/4 melody, the simpler the better and as slow as needed.
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Yikes, I thought.
My first idea was to vocalize sometING that had five beats, then assign a simpleasure melody, and get comfortable singing it over a 4/4 click with an accent on the one (to help keep track/lock in)
So I came up with the phrase "I like Franks and beans."
I know.
Anyway, I was surprised it wasn't hard to lock in. Then I tried accenting different words...now to grab a guitar...
Anyway, not sure how much that helps...but if I can figure out how to articulate how it actually is I'm "locking in," I'll report back.
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I was thinking quarter note level. I mean, why start complicated?
Originally Posted by bako
Thanks for the advice. I'm sure this stuff is really basic for drummers. Rest of us have somehow catch up.
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Lollobrigida - five syllables - just say her name.
Add her first name, Gina, for 7 against 4.
Works for me. Has done for 30 years.
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Thanks for the word aid/lyrical devices. I think that's the best way of feeling it within the context of a single, simple unitary melody.
I was also thinking about two specific poly-rhythms, e.g, one played in the bass and one in the soprano. Or, alternatively, a bass note against a three note chord. In that sense, being very precise with the counting like the drummers do will need to developed.
I should also go through the "key rhythm" approach, as developed by Mike Longo. It really helped me with half note triplets big time.
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Yeah. Can't do that at all. Theoretically, I think you would start with the least common denominator or easiest to count. Eighth note quintuplets I guess is what they're called, where you have five for each beat?
Anyway, once you're good with that pulse: "TA di ki na tum" x4 or "hippopotamus" or whatever, accent every OTHER syllable for quarters -- "TA di KI na TUM ta DI ki NA tum" x2, every FOURTH syllable for halves--
"TA di ki na TUM ta di ki NA tum ta di KI na tum ta DI ki na tum". That's all theoretical BS of course. Never done anything with that.
I HAVE done these 5 note accent pattern poly's with syllables, on 8th notes etc in 5 and 4, but not quintuplets, nor do I plan to do any anytime soon.
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Ha. Posted without seeing the other replies. :-) My syllables are looking pretty mundane at this point.
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No I use them all the time, actually. It's a very elegant adaptation and *cheat-sheet*, if you will, of the Indian rhythmic system. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Mundane, compared to Rob's post anyway. :-) Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Well,yeah.
I think the quintuplet version is, if I recall (and as you state):
Ta-di-ke-na-tu.
So, count that 4 times (4 beats): Ta-di-ke-na-tu----Ta-di-ke-na-tu---Ta-di-ke-na-tu----Ta-di--ke-na-tu
the "4" hits on the TA each time (the downbeat). For simplicity's sake, assign the left hand to play the 4.
the "5" hits on the TA of beat 1, the TU of beat 1, the "NA" of beat 2, the "KE" of beat 3, and the "DI" of beat 4. For simplicity's sake, assign the right hand to play the "5".
Tap it out on the lap with both hands. That's what a drummer would do.
Eventually, bring it to the instrument, assigning the L and R that was practiced to a bass note or chord, or different regions (bass, soprano, etc).
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Clave + one beat
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 &
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Lol, ta-da-ke-na-tu or Lo-la-bri-gi-da...
I know which one I'll remember.
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Well, I just realized that I conflated two separate and distinct issues: time-feel and poly-rhythms.
The former is best solved by fixating on Italian actresses; the later requires more math and precision.
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I was going to suggest Longo but you are already familiar. His stuff has been more than opening a door, it pretty much evicerated my former sense of time and replaced it with something I still need to develop . . . but it is much better now!
I can pretty much tap 4 in my sleep with my foot. I tapped 4 with my left foot, only saying 1 for a few runthroughs, then tapped 5 with my left hand over the space from 1 to 1. I came up with pa-ra-di-dle-dee if you need to speak/sing it. Paradiddle is a drum term and I added dee as it seemed to fit. Worked for me. I liked 5/4 so much I went for 7/4, then 10/4 (5/2). Once you get started it is addicting, or maybe it's just me.Last edited by Bobby Marshall; 01-12-2017 at 09:19 PM.
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For the past several months, as I work every day at my office job, I've been also working the crap out of two against three and three against four ( quarter note triplets and half note triplets ), as Longo presented it in his second video. ( recall what he was teaching in the last 20 minutes of that video to the trumpet and saxophone players, basically telling them "this means you don't have two against three and three against four in your time") I think I finally got it down cold, and I can actually play on the instrument now after a prolonged woodshed. What's more, I can play it as two line movement, bass against soprano . Originally Posted by Bobby Marshall
It's all from what Mike Longo said.
There's a method to my madness: I worked on half note and quarter note triplets within the framework of two line movement. I think it finally paid off, I can do a lot more on the instrument now . It's all due to Mike Longo
I think of five against four as excellent comping method, a way of playing chords using syncopation . In the way that I Think of a quarter note against a double quarter note . I spent a good amount of time working on quarter note versus dotted quarter note and I think I finally got it down . I saw Jonathan Kreisberg play chords this way at his master class and he also does it on his last record, One. He makes it look so easy . I'm sure he had to put the time and at some point though too.
I texted my friend about playing five against four ----he is an outstanding percussionist who studied in Morocco with some really master musicians and really has the stuff down cold . He texted back with a simple statement: "what's coming to five and four? 20 "
Yes it is !
I'm going to use five against four in the same way I use quarter note versus dotted quarter note: as a syncopated way of Comping.
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Wow. There is a place where you can get paid to work on polyrhythms. Dream job! Originally Posted by NSJ
And, am I reading this right, you can play a bass line in 4/4 while playing a lead line 5 over 4? I have to start working on getting my thumb to do 4 while my other digit (s) play 5 over the same measure. How long did it take you to go from your hands/feet doing polyrhythms to just your fingers?
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One thing is to play figure of 5 beats over figure of 4 beats, where pattern repeats after 20 beats.
The other is to divide a length of time, a beat, or two, or bar, or two in 5 equal segments, where pattern repeats after each 5 segments.
IMO, 5 is the number of swing (not 3).
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTubeLast edited by Vladan; 01-13-2017 at 04:35 AM.
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You could also play 5 beats over a figure of 2 beats so that the pattern repeats after 10 beats instead of 20. Or at least this feels better to me. Half the space, same overall feel. Then if you think of the 2 beats as half notes, you move it back to 4.
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So, I did the *Resultant Rhythm*, following the rules set forth by Mike Longo.
In one measure of 5/4, it breaks down like this: (sorry, don't have access to music notation at work
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Assign the right hand to make 5 hits
Assign the left hand to make 4 hits
a measure of 5 beats, in 5/4 time.
the first and last beats are quarter notes: the first beat is the only one played by both hands and is assigned a full quarter note value. All subsequent hits alternate between right hand and left hand.
Beat 1: a quarter note (played simultaneously by both RIGHT and LEFT)
Beat 2: a 16th note (RIGHT) and a dotted 8th note (LEFT)
Beat 3: an 8th note (RIGHT) and an 8th note (LEFT)
Beat 4: a dotted 8th note RIGHT) and a 16th note (LEFT)
Beat 5: a quarter note (RIGHT)
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I worked a fair bit with classical new music ensembles back in the '80s and most players used her name to delineate 5s and 7s. I wonder if they still do considering that most younger musicians wouldn't even know who she is. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Lollobrigida - five syllables - just say her name.
Add her first name, Gina, for 7 against 4.
Works for me. Has done for 30 years.
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I saw a clip of Dizzy Gillespie in which he said that when playing in 5/4 he would repeat, in his head, the phrase:
"Who parked the car? I did! Who parked the car? I did!"Last edited by Flat5; 01-14-2017 at 01:42 AM.
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Try 3 and 5 against 4 together... there's an mbase exercise for that
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Do you mean switching back and forth each measure between 3 against 4 and 5 against 4 or literally at the same time? Originally Posted by christianm77
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