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Tasked with soloing over an O Tannenbaum reharm. Over a b9 #11 I figure I play... Altered? Lydian Dominant b9?
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11-28-2017 11:02 PM
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If you want to think of the #11 as a b5 Diminished arpeggios and lines will get you both colors.
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If this is really an altered dominant (i.e. b9 and b5), altered might be a good choice. If it's really b9 and #11, then it's more likely a diminished (H/W) harmony.
Where's the b9 #11 in this tune?
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What's the context? Why don't people ever give the damn context?
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Exactly! I think it's just another case of casualty from CST teaching
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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How can one tell which is which, by having both the perfect 5th and #11 present? How often does that occur? Isn't the perfect 5th usually dropped and in that case aren't the two chord symbols simply two ways of expressing the same thing, with one as shorthand? Originally Posted by M-ster
Anyway, it seems to me that you can use the half-whole scale in either case but if you want to use the Altered Scale you cannot have the perfect 5th in the voicing.
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C7 b9 #11 is C E G Bb Db Gb.
You probably want to be careful with that G.
Since you have the b9, you don't want the natural 9, so forget about D.
With a b9, the #9 often sounds good, so Eb joins the chord tones as a possibiity.
F is the 11th and, since you have a Gb is not going to work. Forget about F
Ab is interesting. #5 or b13. Might work.
A is the 13th, and might work, but I suspect that the b13 is the better choice.
B won't work because it's the natural 7, and it's a dom chord.
So, any note will work except D, F and B. To be clear, it's not that you couldn't make them sound great, but it's going to take a very strong melodic line to do it.
What's left: C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb. That's CHW diminished.
You might be ok with the Ab instead of A, in which case you might remove the G to avoid 3 half steps in a row. That gives C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb. That'd Db melodic minor, aka, Calt.
Which notes work best depends on the melodic statement.
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b9 #11 very much implies tritone sub material.
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b9 #11...
looks like the chord already implies 6 notes...
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Is the chord going to resolve to something?
If it's X32322 something close to B pentatonic or B Locrian seems to work.
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b9#11? Sounds like bullshit bruv.
I reckon b9b5
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Sure I’ll throw in the context to that part of the tune.
Key Signature: Ab Major
|Ab Ab/G|F- F-/Eb D-7b5|D-7b5|Gb9(#11)|Ab(add9)
I would make an altered dominant of it but the chart really does write it as #11. I figure they’re treating it as lydian, treating the tonic Ab as a dominant mixolydian, excluding the seventh. Most I can make of it, anyways.
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Yep it’s a G7b9b5 (ie G altered most likely... one flat note away from Ab Ionian.)
Guy writing the chart is total flapjack.
#IVm7b5-VII7(alt)-I common in standards, Groovin High, I Remember You etcLast edited by christianm77; 11-29-2017 at 09:05 AM.
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Where did you get this enharmonic fiasco? First edition real book?
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Band director (I play in a school jazz band.) just threw it at us for our Christmas concert. Total departure from anything he had given us so far. We were playing super simple stuff (all my band mates are new to jazz), and all of a sudden we get this ridiculous chart. Mostly easy for all the trumpets and saxophones just playing the dots, but any soloist trying to analyze it would find it pretty ludicrous.
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It's not actually ridiculous though when you know what it is. It's very commonplace standards style harmony. You see a lot of this stuff in the Real book for instance, so it's good to get used to it. Originally Posted by Nova_Comedy
As a general rule as a guitarist in a big-band type ensemble, probably best to play simple chords anyway (unless you are doing something very modern). The horns will have the upper extension harmony on top in the arrangement, and if there's a piano as well, best to play as simple as poss. I favour 1-3-7 and 1-7-3 'Freddie Green' voicings for this type of work.
Also ignore the bass notes in the chords. That's the bass's job, and in this case they don't affect the basic harmony. They aren't polychords.
I suppose if push comes to shove you could always ask the Band director, but given the context I think it's a simple mis-spelling of harmony.
If you have to solo on that progression, work first on the chord tones, and keep it simple. The important thing about the G7alt thingy is the resolution to Ab.
VII7-I is one of my favourite progressions BTW.Last edited by christianm77; 11-29-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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So - I look at a chart like that:
|Ab Ab/G|F- F-/Eb D-7b5|D-7b5|Gb9(#11)|Ab(add9)
And I see
| Ab | Fm6 | % | G7alt | Ab
- ignore bass lines
- Fm6 has the same notes as Dm7b5 (D F A B)
- G7b9#11 is a mis-spelled altered chord
Scale wise that's three basic scales -
Ab Ionian
F Dorian
G Altered
Ab Ionian again
Easy when you know how. (25 years of this nonsense in my case!)
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Wow! Couldn’t be more thankful for the fantastic break down and tips. Nifty stuff! Guess I’ll hit the licks and get ready for the concert. Not really anything in the tune that gets so complex as that and you’ve gone and shown me how simple it is.
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No problem man. As soon as I knew the context of the question and what you needed, I thought I could be of some help, so glad you found it to be helpful. Originally Posted by Nova_Comedy
Here's something else you can do.
Write down the notes in all the scales starting from the same note - lets say Ab for each one cos it's the overall tonic. Compare the scales.
What do you notice?
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Ab Ionian
F Dorian
G Altered
Ab Bb B C Db D Eb F G Ab
Okay, so that leaves with... well, first of all, a pretty long string of chromaticism. We’ve got a B as a blue note from Ab blues and the D works into - um - Eb bebop?
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Well I was thinking more like
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G - Ab Ionian
Ab Bb C D Eb F G - F Dorian
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G - G Altered
(Note - it's Cb, not B)
Basically there's only one or two notes changing here in each scale. So, instead of thinking of all seven notes, we can target these tones... Give it a try
Ab major - Ab major scale
F dorian - go for D
G Altered, go for that Cb and Db
Of course, you could also play the second scale on the first and last chords, and then you'd have an Ab lydian, and only two scales to think of overall....
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Elegant way of thinking through it. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Woah, yeah. Brilliant way of thinking about this.
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I'm in the camp that reinterprets every dom7 (whether or not something is added to it) as alt7 and plays what ever dang upper partials and altered 5 or 9 I feel like playing. In this case, I'd interpret b9#11 as b5b9, but with instructions to play the b5 an octave higher. Redundant, since it's essentially impossible not to on the guitar, but maybe the band leader thought he was being helpful. Out of sheer cussedness I'd playe either a vanilla dom7, a 13, or 7#9. Voicings? We don't need no steenking voicings. We are Federales.
John
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flat everything!!!! None more flat!!!!!!! Originally Posted by john a.
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