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(This is a revision to my earlier post, which was in error.) I've been working on minor II V's, paying particular attention to locrian mode over (in this instance) Fmi7b5. (Lots of options for the V chord.) It occurred to me that the Fmi7b5 shape I was using was the same as Db9 without the root. Is there any potential benefit here, or am I just making life more complicated than it needs to be?
Last edited by buduranus2; 07-16-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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07-16-2019 05:03 PM
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The Fm7b5 is like the rootless C#9 and identical to the G#m6. It's similar to the BM6#11 which transitions to Bb7 nicely.
I'm not sure what your question is.
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I think you are simply mistaken.
Originally Posted by buduranus2
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B9 is B D# F# A C#
Fm7b5 is F Ab B Eb.
Db9 is Db F Ab B Eb.
The m7b5 that is a rootless B9 is Ebm7b5, D# F# A C# (ordinarily you'd spell it with flats, but I wanted to make it clear that it's a rootless B9.
If you're thinking only about chord names and grips, you may find it helpful to learn all the individual notes in the chords you use.
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Yes, I am. I meant C#/Db not B. I'll change the OP. My bad. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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That was my question. I had it wrong in the OP. Originally Posted by P4guitar
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Fm7b5 is a rootless Db9. It's also, exactly, Abm6.
Two names for exactly the same notes and another name for the same notes with an added Db.
They don't function the same way. So, there's an argument that you should think of them differently.
For example that's a iim7b5 in the key of Ebm. It's a V7, more or less, in Gb. And, it's a Im6 in Abm. It also can be viewed through other lenses which I won't go through here. But, just thinking about those three, they work differently in a song.
Knowing the equivalences may give you another way to think about soloing. For example, if you can't figure out what to play on F#m7b5, maybe you'd have an easier time thinking D9 or Am6. That may not quite nail the sound of the song, but it will be closer than playing stuff at random. Not to speak against playing randomly, because, undoubtedly, there is somebody out there making that sound great
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The others have answered it. I saw your original post after you posted but couldn't get in because of the technical problems. I'm glad you changed B to Db/C#!
No, but chord shapes always need to be put in context. Originally Posted by buduranus2
If you saw the English word 'bow' all by itself, you'd interpret it as you saw it. But it could be a bow on a stage, the front of a ship, a thing that shoots arrows, a thing used to play a violin, a knot, a kind of neck-tie, maybe the sound of a dog...
As has been said, this chord is the famous '3 in 1' chord. A m7b5...is a rootless 9...is a m6. Saying it's three chords in one is a simple way of putting it.
(If we want to complicate it slightly, really we're just talking about a set of notes. What they're 'called' depends largely on their context. I mean, those notes - played xx3444 - could be called a B6 with an F bass. Or other things if inverted.
But for everyday purposes the x8989x shape is a m7b5 - which is frequently used in blues music as a 9 chord - and the xx3444 shape is a m6. Which is a top-four-strings version of the full Abm6 chord).
Phew.
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No. This is a good realisation because it maximises the utility of what you already know. Originally Posted by buduranus2
How many m7b5 licks do you know? How many dominant? How many voicings? You can use one on the other.
Bear in mind Fm7b5 also = Abm6
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In diatonic progressions, I find it easier to think and play inversions of m7b5 instead dominant7 when wanting to move around or raise the tension.. when I don't have to give the root of course. It's kinda cheating but whatev. Works.
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There’s no cheating in music. Originally Posted by emanresu
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Your enharmony makes my eyes bleed Originally Posted by P4guitar
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It is when I do it (occasionally) Originally Posted by christianm77
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OK, great. I thought there might be something going on in this regard. Your explanation gives me some needed clarity and a path forward. Originally Posted by ragman1
As it turns out, I'm relatively comfortable with m7b5. I've made pretty good progress internalizing the sound of locrian mode. I'm striving to incorporate a more intervalic approach rather than linear (scalar.) I think what intrigued me about the Fmi7b5/Db9 connection is that it puts me on more comfortable footing (dominant) which is a little easier for me somehow. Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by buduranus2; 07-17-2019 at 12:03 PM.
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Think it does for most people, but there’s a lot of value knowing you can apply the same shit all over the place. Originally Posted by buduranus2
The best players aren’t necessarily the ones that know the most, it’s the ones that can apply what they know in the most thorough way.
Obviously the 7/m6/m7b5 connection also simplified melodic minor use.
Also you have the tritone sub :-)
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Use a capo. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Grant Green Originally Posted by christianm77
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I pleased you're getting the m7b5 sound together ... Originally Posted by buduranus2
I never have got that sound myself ....
However Fmin7b5 noes not sub for D9 !!! as you said above
(Its should be Db9 as I'm sure you know)
sorry to be a pedant .....
we make things even more confusing for others here if we aren't careful
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Well if m7b5 is cheating...
Anyway, a lot of jazz ideas come out of thinking that way. Melodic minor has two half diminished chords in it as well. There's half diminished/Diminished connection from harmonic minor. With apologies to Barry Harris.... :-)
Anyway, at this point in my life I basically navigate melodic minor and most of its application in various ways using half diminished Voicings as the framework.
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Duly noted and corrected. Originally Posted by pingu
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thanks ! Originally Posted by buduranus2
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By the way, that 4-string Abm6 shape is also a rootless G7alt chord. Try this:
x2323x - x5656x - x8989x - 8x998x
You're sliding the same shape up a minor 3rd each time and resolving to a M7. Nice :-)
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I dare you to go to a bluegrass convention and say that. Originally Posted by JGinNJ
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That makes sense to me... kind of how I do it. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
There’s also two dom9s and two m6s.... so there you go
Lot of tritones going on in that scale....
now think about even more tritone and how you can use the whole tone on all three chords.
I’m sure Barry would say why not use the m6-dim which is the melodic minor and harmonic together in one handy scale .
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Yes, I'll definitely experiment with this. Appreciate you! Originally Posted by ragman1
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