E-7b5 A7b9 : Jerry Bergonzi, Barry Harris, and David Baker

[rintincop]

|| D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||
tempo 100

Barry Harris prescribes these basic scale outlines:
D-6 : Ascend D E F G A A# B

E-7b5 A7b9: Descend C7 scale from Bb down to C# which is the 3rd of A7.

How do Jerry Bergonzi and David Baker prescribe basic scale outlines for ||: D-6 | E-7b6 A7b9 :|| ?

Mark Levine would prescribe three scales:

• Over the iim7(b5) chord, use a melodic minor scale up a minor third from the root. Ex. Em7(b5)=G melodic minor
• Over the V7 chord, use a melodic minor scale up a half-step from the root. Ex. A7=Bb melodic minor
• Over the imin69, use the melodic minor scale based on the root. Ex. Dmin69=D melodic minor

[ragman1]

How fast is it moving?

[Cunamara]

Don't know about the guys you cite but why make it complicated? Typically these are two beats each in a 4/4 tune, although not always, so there's not a lot of time to worry about it. You could play the C mixolydian scale al la BH, or think F major which to me is simpler still and will give you a little bluesy rub. Or D harmonic minor since that's the scale both chords come from.

[ragman1]

The point is, if it's moving fast, you haven't got time to mess around with two scales. Unless maybe you work out a lick in advance and just repeat it every time. Ugh!

So what Cunamara just said - D harm for obvious reasons, F maj because it's the relative major - so C7 as a swap over the minor ii-V. C7 is bluesy (b9 and #9 of A7).

But also, what's the next chord after the A7b9? Dm or something else? Also what's the tune doing?

Context, always context. Unless it's all just theoretical, of course :-)

[christianm77]

IIRC David Baker also suggests C dominant on Em7b5

[TOMMO]

IIRC David Baker also suggests C dominant on Em7b5

Which makes perfect sense since Em7b5 is the upper structure of C7 and C7b9 can be substituted for A7b9 (family of four?)

[rpjazzguitar]

I know Barry Harris teaches:
Over E-7b5 A7b9 play the C7 scale from its 7th(Bb) down to C#.

How do Jerry Bergonzi and David Baker teach scale play over E-7b6 A7b9 ?

Mark Levine would prescribe two scales:
G melodic minor for E-7b5
Bb melodic minor (or A half-whole dim scale ) for A7b9

If I were thinking about it, I'd be thinking D minor tonal center. That's aeolean, meaning same notes as F major.

Em7b5 is E G Bb D, so you get all the chord tones. The notes left over from Dminor are F A C. The other notes are Eb Gb Ab B and Db.

Any of the D minor notes will work, but you have to be careful of how you lean on them.

Of the others, Db is a note that marks the transition to the A7b9. The movement of D to Db is defining. So save it. The B natural will change the tonality by taking away the b5, so you'll have to be careful with that one. Ab has the same problem -- it's the major third against a minor chord. Eb is surrounded on both sides by chord tones, so it's a tough choice. Gb makes it a Em9b5, which can sound okay, to my ear.

So, what do you get? D aeolean and some adjustments. If you want to name the adjusted scales, you can. One is Gmelmin. Another is Dharmmin. Bbmelmin works against A7 to create an alt sound. etc. It has always seemed natural to me to make these adjustments by ear.

And, if you get in the octave above the comping for your solo, you can sort of keep D aeolian in the back of your mind and play almost anything with a decent melodic structure and good time.

[Average Joe]

Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?

[rpjazzguitar]

Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?

The notes are C E G Bb. Raise that C to a D and you've got Em7b5. Also Gm6.

So, one reason C7 works is because the notes are mostly chord tones of the Em7b5.

Also, from the perspective of A7, you get 5 b7 b9 #9, which gives a nice altered ninth sound.

Or, you could think about Dm as being relative to Fmajor and C7 is the V7 chord in Fmajor.

But, mostly it works because it has a lot of the chord tones and extensions you want, and not much you don't want.

[Hugo Gainly]

Go on, go on! - D harm.Major over all of it!!

[ragman1]

Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?

It's an accepted substitute to play the relative major over the minor ii-V. Playing C7 over Em7b5-A7b9 gives you a bluesy sound. It's not always appropriate but when it works, it works.

i.e. what rpjazzguitar said.

Why not play it yourself and see? That's the best way.

(It's also, to be honest, a bit of a cheap hack because the maj scale's easier than all that minor stuff :-))

[mr. beaumont]

Em7b5 is just C9, is just Gminor 6.

Good luck with those whole scales over 2 beats.

[rintincop]

And Jerry Bergonzi teaches E-7b5 A7b9 scale application how?

We know this ii V almost always occurs as 2 beat or 4 beat pacing:

Ex:
| E-7b5 A7b9 |

| E-7b5 | A7b9 |

____

I think C7 descending from Bb to C# is the ideal pool of notes. The chord tones hit in perfect alignment. There is no more melodic a scale run than this case, imo. Bird favored it, Monk showed it to Barry, etc.

Here's another test of C7 with C# included (which is it's b9 of C7 and the 3rd of A7, but one doesn't need to think of that when playing it) :
Play 5432 phrases using any other tonic choice... then try C7 with C# included.
I realized 5432 works beautifully on C7 including C# over | E-7b5 | A7b9 |
Playing E Locrian, not so much...it's awkward
Playing D harmonic minor, not so much...it's awkward

Christian said something like we know "a ton of C7 stuff" so why not play it over ii V minor . I agree!

[christianm77]

With Barry harris you get good at running scales into each other.
so you start off in C7 say and move through Eb7.

or you play mostly using a C7 and use C#o7 to get into D minor

[christianm77]

It’s taken me a while to realise that what people call E locrian I think of as emphasising the 3rd of C7.

Same thing really, but I think it’s possible some students might think of a whole separate fingering for an E locrian scale.

[rintincop]

It’s taken me a while to realise that what people call E locrian I think of as emphasising the 3rd of C7.

Same thing really, but I think it’s possible some students might think of a whole separate fingering for an E locrian scale.

I agree with you. By the way, have you tried 5432 phrases in E Locrian or Locrian #2, it won't work for me. And then A7b9 comes along moments later and I am really messed up by having been in that moment of Locrian.

I think C7 descending from Bb to C# is the

ideal pool of notes

. The chord tones hit in

perfect

alignment. I see the pool as the scale

[mr. beaumont]

Honestly, I'd want to know if the subsequent Dm is a place of rest or if we get moving towards some other target right away.

I can't chase changes anymore. I'd be playing anything that pulled me to Dm that I felt like at the moment. C7, Eb7, Dbmaj7, whatevs...

[rpjazzguitar]

So, if you like C7 from Bb to C# .. because it puts all the right notes on the strong beats ... does that mean you play it that way every time? So, it's a lick that you plug into those changes? And, then you learn another, and another, and that's what you play?

I'm not trying to be difficult -- I never had any formal training of this type. Is that the idea?

How do you move from that to real improvisation, or is that real improvisation?

[Tal_175]

Is there a reason why it's sensible to think C7 over a Dmin tonal center?

For D min target, C7 is also called the backdoor dominant. In general C7 can be used like an A7. Both harmonically and melodically.

[rpjazzguitar]

For D min target, C7 is also called the backdoor dominant. In general C7 can be used like an A7. Both harmonically and melodically.

You can move it up by minor thirds and get Eb7, Gb7 and A7.

Eb G Bb Db, all notes work against A7.
Gb Bb Db E, all work
A Db E G, all work.

Dbmin7 ... Db E G Bb. All three 7ths are within one note -- which is why some people prefer to start with diminished chords and build from there.

[rintincop]

Honestly, I'd want to know if the subsequent Dm is a place of rest or if we get moving towards some other target right away.

I can't chase changes anymore. I'd be playing anything that pulled me to Dm that I felt like at the moment. C7, Eb7, Dbmaj7, whatevs...

||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||

[rintincop]

||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||

So, if you like C7 from Bb to C# .. because it puts all the right notes on the strong beats ... does that mean you play it that way every time? So, it's a lick that you plug into those changes? And, then you learn another, and another, and that's what you play?

I'm not trying to be difficult -- I never had any formal training of this type. Is that the idea?

How do you move from that to real improvisation, or is that real improvisation?

Of course not, but it's the default basic starting point scale for myself and my students... learned from Barry Harris, the greatest jazz teacher ever.

Then we practice this C7 down from Bb to C# (over E-7b5 A7b9) every session as our warm up. (And we drill it all 12 keys of course.)
Play the scale up.
Play the scale down.
Play the scale up and down.
Play the scale down and up.
Play 12345, 34567, 567.
Play 76543, 54321, 321.
Play it in 3rds.
Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 3rds.
Play it in triads (also pivots).

Play the chromatic approach note to each of the triads.

Play it in 7th chords (also as pivots).

Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 7th chords.
PLAY the 54321 Phrases (also ascending forms).
Play the 876 Phrases .
Play the Barry Harris form of chromatic scale for C7.

NOW FREELY MIX ALL OF THE ABOVE ELEMENTS AND YOU ARE PRACTICING IMPROVISATION FUMDEMENTALS. Mess it up.

We now know how to play a lot of stuff on the C7 scale.... in improvisation we play what we know.

[rpjazzguitar]

||: D-6 | E-7b5 A7b9 :||

Of course not, but it's the default basic starting point scale for myself and my students... learned from Barry Harris, the greatest jazz teacher ever.

Then we practice this C7 down from Bb to C# (

E-7b5 A7b9 )

every session as our warm up. (And in other common keys)
Play the scale it up.
Play the scale down.
Play the scale up and down.
Play the scale down and up.
Play 12345, 34567, 567.
Play 76543, 54321, 321.
Play it in 3rds.
Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 3rds.
Play it in triads (also pivots).

Play the chromatic approach note to each of the triads.

Play it in 7th chords (also as pivots).

Play the chromatic approach note to each of the 7th chords.
PLAY the 54321 Phrases (also ascending forms).
Play the 876 Phrases .
Play the Barry Harris form of chromatic scale for C7.

NOW FREELY MIX ALL OF THE ABOVE ELEMENTS AND YOU ARE PRACTICING IMPROVISATION FUMDEMENTALS. Mess it up.

We now know how to play a lot of stuff on the C7 scale.... in improvisation we play what we know.

Thank you. If I can ask a little more ... how is this organized?

Suppose I am practicing all these ways to navigate through C7 (Cmixo, right?). Do I do this against harmony? If so, which chords?

Then, I understand I have to get it in all keys all over the neck. So, suppose now I can navigate 7th chords in multiple ways all over.

What's next? Do the same for Cm7? All the variations of a C rooted chord?

Do I practice this stuff against harmony? Which chords? How do I organize that?

When do I get to practicing tunes and is there a specific approach to doing that?

Is there a book/article/comprehensive-outline for how to proceed through this approach?

I ask these questions seriously. Even though I've been playing for a long time, I don't think I have fully understood the approach you describe.

For contrast, or discussion, here's the approach I have taken. Learn to read. Learn the fingerboard. Memorize the notes in the chords you use. Play songs and improvise. Twelve keys. IRealpro for backing changing the key by a 4th every chorus. Focus on the sounds of altered 3rds, 5ths and 9ths. Comp the tunes in 12 keys - builds the ear. Also, and maybe even more important: do everything with an intense focus on time-feel. Nothing sounds good with bad time. Lots of stuff sounds good with good time. My approach has pros and cons, but this post is long enough.

[rintincop]

It's "the basics" in Chapt 1 of the Howard Reese book "The Barry Harris Workshops" .

I'm a pianist, so I practice it over my left hand accompaniment on
I VI ii V, and over minor I vi ii V, also over blues, and all the standards.
For guitar I practice it all without accompaniment. It "makes the changes" so clearly that I don't need accompaniment to hear what going on.

[princeplanet]

Am I the only guy that likes HW dim over min 2-5 ?