three notes per string scale fingerings

[rafapak]

hi guys

I know a person who is not bad at heavy metal and usually uses three notes per string fingerings because this makes it possible for him to play fast solos. He is into jazz now but would like to stick to three notes per string fingerings. From what I saw on youtube and somewhere else I concluded that in most cases jazzers don't use three notes per string fingerings . Do you think that people who like 3nps fingerings should be taught jazz in different way when compared to those who don't use 3nps fingerings?

any comments will be highly appreciated

[Mike J.]

I highly doubt that jazzers don't use three note per string fingerings.

[rafapak]

I was afraid that if you use 3nps fingerings you play jazz in a bad way or sth. Thanks for your comment

[bako]

I use all manner of fingerings.

Position fingerings all 12 keys.

3 notes per string I define as a symmetrical string group fingering.
Some others include:

2+2
1+3
3+1
2+3
3+2
3+3
3+3+2
(number of notes on consecutive strings)

Also:
4+4 (using one slide on each string)

I also like to play scales on one string when I want to maintain one tone color.

Some players use just a few good fingerings to play everything.
I like to know all that is possible and choose whatever will support the particular phrase being played (hopefully, on a good day).

[FatJeff]

Knowing how to play more than two notes per string gives you the ability to impart a swing inflection into your phrases more easily, so yes, it's definitely not a bad thing. The concept of swing inflection/articulation may be foreign to someone coming from a rock/metal background, however. They should be made aware of it and try to incorporate it into their phrases.

[TommyD]

My method is; go where it takes you, and don't worry mechanisms. It's about playing what you want to play, not adjusting your playing to suit some mechanical formula. Miles must be rolling over in his grave!
T/

[FatJeff]

My method is; go where it takes you, and don't worry mechanisms. It's about playing what you want to play, not adjusting your playing to suit some mechanical formula. Miles must be rolling over in his grave!
T/

But what if you don't have the mechanisms to play what you want to play? What if your current level of ability is not high enough to play all the stuff you want to? I doubt anyone can argue that improving one's technical capacity hinders being able to play what you want. The only way I know to get that capacity is to move outside my comfort region and practice hard at stuff I'm not very good at. In other words, adjusting my playing.

Jamming for fun is one thing, but to get better, you need to practice as well as play.


EDIT: I just re-read Tommy's post in context with the rest of this thread, and I have to say now that I agree with him. As far as playing lines on the fretboard is concerned, find out what works, and go with that - don't be bound by some predetermined method of approaching the fingerings ("Oh, I can't play that note here - it would mean I have more than 2 notes on the B string!")

[Lambosoa]

But what if you don't have the mechanisms to play what you want to play? What if your current level of ability is not high enough to play all the stuff you want to? I doubt anyone can argue that improving one's technical capacity hinders being able to play what you want. The only way I know to get that capacity is to move outside my comfort region and practice hard at stuff I'm not very good at. In other words, adjusting my playing.

Jamming for fun is one thing, but to get better, you need to practice as well as play.

While I mostly agree with that, I think the two things are not contradicting each other. I don't believe in context-less practice or exercises, you have to practice in order to play what you want to play that you are not yet able to play, which implies a prerequisite: knowing very precisely what is it that you want to play, and then practice it.

3 notes/string is good, 4 notes is good, 2 notes too. Just depends on, guess what? What you want to play.

[Meggy]

Just to chip in with some thoughts - I have heard it said that 3NPS fingerings are not so good for bebop stuff because of their diagonal nature across the fingerboard i.e. they don't stay in one position. So, the argument goes, this makes them hard to visualize and connect, when there are lots of chord changes, and you need to move quickly through several scale shapes. Is this true though - I'm not qualified to say I have to admit.

Frank Gambale uses/advocates 3NPS fingerings, and although more in the fusion camp, I imagine he is not terrible at playing more straight ahead jazz.

[Drumbler]

Bebop licks are played on the beat so 3 nps doesn't work well with them as they are triplets.

You can still play 3 nps in other ways.

Frank Gambale can play jazz definitely although he is best known for fusion.

Here's a lesson on the Bebop Scale. http://www.jazzguitar.be/bebopscale.html

[derek]

This is where we bump into some of the differences between rock and jazz. Strict 3 note per playing will not be enough, but as others point out, is a great tool to have. This is one of those places where jazz phrasing demands more than just one approach to playing.

[bako]

There is no one fingering class that will perfectly match all the phrasing needs of playing music.

3 note per string fingerings are neither good or evil and they are not limited to any one style.

To understand the advantages and limitations of any one fingering class, take a day or an extended time period and play everything using it exclusively. Take note of your findings and use it when and if it is helpful to you.

[C.A.JO.]

You can arrange your scales like you want to. I think guitarists worry to much about 2, 3 or 4 noter per string patterns... Of course patterns are nice and easy when you're learning. But I believe at some point you must take the time to know your instrument. Then you don't think in 2,3 or 4 note per string patterns, but you think NOTES/SOUNDS.

I know that patterns will stick with you somehow, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to play anything fast. My point is that you need to know your scales more than simply just a pattern. In any fingering memorize the intervals, practice the scales on a single string, 2 strings, every second string, across 6 strings, etc. be creative! At some point you don't see the pattern.... you just "see/hear" the right notes. (This is connected with proper aural skills). Along with good technique you'll be unstoppable!

It's just a matter of correct and focused practice, and a whole new world will open up to you!

[Larry Feldman]

I was in a class with Lee Ritenour. He uses 3 notes on a string. I find it useful for some things, but go between that and conventional scales depending on how I'm feeling.

[fumblefingers]

fine for playing scalar lines.

if you play arpeggios out of these in strict fashion you may find them more awkward than patterns that come out of CAGED. or maybe not. its up to you.

[the_emptier]

i played metal for a long time and the three notes on a string runs are so overused it's sad. with jazz i don't try and burn through licks like in metal anymore, so i mix it up with my note groupings. i like mixing chromaticism and arpeggios to take me all over the board when i do pick up the speed though

[The Poppster]

You can arrange your scales like you want to. I think guitarists worry to much about 2, 3 or 4 noter per string patterns... Of course patterns are nice and easy when you're learning. But I believe at some point you must take the time to know your instrument. Then you don't think in 2,3 or 4 note per string patterns, but you think NOTES/SOUNDS.

I know that patterns will stick with you somehow, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to play anything fast. My point is that you need to know your scales more than simply just a pattern. In any fingering memorize the intervals, practice the scales on a single string, 2 strings, every second string, across 6 strings, etc. be creative! At some point you don't see the pattern.... you just "see/hear" the right notes. (This is connected with proper aural skills). Along with good technique you'll be unstoppable!

It's just a matter of correct and focused practice, and a whole new world will open up to you!

Good post! Thank you.

[JEdgarWinter]

I have some experience with this, as I learned guitar from a GIT grad circa 1988. Three note per string and sweep arpeggios were all the rage. I have relearned scales in a bunch of other groupings, but 3 note per string is still "home base" for me.

I used to think that this way of conceiving of scales was bad for jazz because of the problems already mentioned, but lately I am rethinking things.

I have been working with a (much simpified) variant of the lydian chromatic system, and I find if I substitute lydian, lydian dominant, or lydian augmented for the various diatonic scales: (e.g., lydian starting on b7 for 7th chords, lydian on the minor 3 for minor chords, lydian on the b5 for m7b5s, lydian dominant for non resolving 7ths, and lydian augmented off the major 3rd for altered chords, e.g.) I can use three note per string patterns and not sound lame melodically.

But thinking, for example, "Dorian" or "Melodic Minor" and trying to play decent lines with three note per string patterns is hard: I tend to hit lots of roots and fifths. On the contrary, using the converting to lydian thing, even playing the dreaded "finger music," one tends to hit the more harmonically interesting tones.

Not trying to sell the lydian thing--just making a case for the usefulness of three note per string scales with a bit of thinking adjustment. Could be anything-- Pat Martino's converting to minor, John Stowell's recommendation of practicing lines that combine two scales, or Bruce Saunders "scales through changes" method.

Even getting really serious about chromatic embellishment would probably free any guitar player from the lame melody syndrome associated (fairly) with three note per strings.

[Jazzpunk]

hi guys

I know a person who is not bad at heavy metal and usually uses three notes per string fingerings because this makes it possible for him to play fast solos. He is into jazz now but would like to stick to three notes per string fingerings.

My advice would be to have your friend start transcribing some solos that he likes. He should find out pretty quickly whether or not his current fingering system will work or if he'll need to make adjustments.

[monk]

hi guys
I know a person who is not bad at heavy metal and usually uses three notes per string fingerings because this makes it possible for him to play fast solos. He is into jazz now but would like to stick to three notes per string fingerings.

A better question might be are three string fingerings all he needs?

The answer is no.

That's like someone saying I have a saw. Is that enough to be a carpenter?

Regards,
monk

[Mojojojo]

Bebop licks are played on the beat so 3 nps doesn't work well with them as they are triplets.

Just because you are playing 3 nps does not mean you have to play them in triplet fashion. Metal guys use these all the time and are not bound to playing them as triplets.

I like 3 nps myself, cause it helps me to visualize the chromatics in between the diatonic notes, and it also makes it easier to play the fretboard horizontally instead of locking yourself into a "box". 3 nps patterns make it easier to navigate from position to position. No need to use it all the time. I'm just as likely to start in one box pattern, then navigate up the fretboard using 3 nps patterns to reach another box pattern. After awhile I don't even think about it anymore, just sort of reacting to what my mind and the harmony tells me.

[tylerguitar75]

Yeah, I learned guitar the Paul Gilbert way. I always practiced "shredding" with my 3-note per string modes, and then I decided I'd like to learn more about "music" than technique, and that's what got me into jazz. Of course, many of the things Paul Gilbert and Joe Satriani taught me are very useful in jazz.

[max chill]

My current guitar allows me to play 22 notes per string. I use most of them.