-
Does this exist?
That's all I want to know.
-
10-21-2020 11:17 AM
-
Well, you could always just play the tune without deviation. I guess it's still jazz.
-
To answer that question you’d have to answer what do you count as improvisation?
-
uh?
-
Well what definition do you take?
so here’s a definition from a google search
something that is improvised, in particular a piece of music, drama, etc. created spontaneously or without preparation.
So there is a lot of jazz that isn’t this. In fact depending on how you define preparation you could say almost no jazz is improvised, if that includes shedding tunes and so on. I think most of us would take spontaneous to allow some room for preparation.
let’s concentrate on the first half - something made up spontaneously maybe with some preparation. There is plenty of jazz that falls into this category, but plenty that doesn’t.
I was learning Thelonious Monk’s gorgeous Crepescule with Nellie is played which in a pretty consistent arrangement and may not feature any blowing. I don’t think it would be contentious to call Monk primarily a composer.
is Monk jazz?
OTOH if you define improvisation as something not notated with a score, maybe it is. An unscored composition or arrangement may naturally evolve over time in a way a written piece might not.
TBH it’s quite hard to define whether something is made up in the moment or to some extent composed. Most of us have licks or ideas we return to even if we don’t play worked out solos. But the latter idea has more mileage in jazz historically than seems to be common knowledge.
And just because you can make up something spontaneously doesn’t mean that’s what you always do.
I think Improvisation is not that helpful a term, as different people have totally different definitions. We can all agree Sonny Rollins is a jazz improviser, but how about Oscar Peterson who was known for having a worked out show?
the identification of jazz with improvisation comes more from an accident of history than anything else. It seems daft to call a Carnatic, Flamenco, Arabic or 18th Century European musician a jazz musician just because they improvise some of the time.
the I word I prefer is ‘individuality’; I think the personal voice is very important in jazz historically. just because you learned someone’s music doesn’t mean you should play it. You might play a very arranged band but still have room to add your own individual statement. And to me that’s more important as a description of what’s going on in the music.
-
I take the ordinary definition which all sane people and dictionaries take.Well what definition do you take?
But that has nothing to do with the psychology of improvisation, whether it's spontaneous, etc, etc. It's both anyway. It's what you know, which is everything you've done before, plus stuff that pops out while you're at it.
I don't regard playing pre-composed solos as improvisation, obviously. In fact, I'd definitely call that cheating
(I only cheated once. I had to solo with a band I didn't know in front of a lot of people. I worked up something effective and trotted it out. I was pretty good :-))
-
In any case, I don't think it matters if you do repeat something you already know if it's good. Who cares? It's not a competition.
-
Mind you, if someone played a solo on a record then, when you saw them live, repeated the same solo, then, when you saw them again sometime later, played the same solo, I wouldn't think much of them.
-
Yeah, it’s music right? Your aim is to make good music presumably. I do think doing something that’s your own is really the important thing. That was always the big thing in the jazz community.
Originally Posted by ragman1
OTOH some jazz musicians did aim to be totally spontaneous. Rollins is a famous example; but he was unusual in that respect.
For me there’s a value in having some planning but also allowing there to be room for spontaneity. Often solos coalesce over the course of a few nights of playing with the same band, which is why tours are so important.
-
The thing is, there is no cheating in music. Originally Posted by ragman1
I take the ordinary definition which all sane people and dictionaries take.
But that has nothing to do with the psychology of improvisation, whether it's spontaneous, etc, etc. It's both anyway. It's what you know, which is everything you've done before, plus stuff that pops out while you're at it.
I don't regard playing pre-composed solos as improvisation, obviously. In fact, I'd definitely call that cheating
(I only cheated once. I had to solo with a band I didn't know in front of a lot of people. I worked up something effective and trotted it out. I was pretty good :-))
-
Is Duke Ellington jazz? Or only when one of his horn players takes a solo and plays some more or less spontaneous stuff? Same question for Count Basie?
-
Crazy mad 'free jazz' apart (where you couldn't possibly pre-plan it anyway) I should think so too. But I reckon that's why Rollins was so good. He took the risk. If you constantly work without a safety net you lose your fear. Life favours the brave*.some jazz musicians did aim to be totally spontaneous. Rollins is a famous example; but he was unusual in that respect.
Depends on the kind of cheating :-)no cheating in music
* Or so I'm told!
-
Playing in a "jazz style but not jazz", that's jazz without improvisation.
-
Presumably all written out beforehand, of course... nothing on the spot.
-
Why should improvisation be a part of jazz? That it often is, doesn't mean anything.
Is Autumn leaves a jazz tune?
Is it still a jazz tune if i play a chord melody version of it that i picked of the internet?
-
Yes.
But if a band plays it, all the instruments can't just play exactly the same tune again and again, can they? So what are they going to do? It's not a symphony.
-
Well they can.
-
Christian -
Sorry, I missed this bit.
So do I. Exactly. That's the whole point, isn't it?I do think doing something that’s your own is really the important thing.
I used to play classical. There, of course, it's just the tune as written but the personal thing comes in with the expression and interpretation.
-
Jazz improvisation is the difference between a musician who knows some jazz standards and a jazz musician.
-
What, just play the same tune again and again and again and again and again? Originally Posted by Marcel_A
Yes, I suppose they could... I mean, no one's going to stop them. It's not against the law or anything :-)
-
Tal_175
The old ones are the best :-)
-
Hi, Tommo. I don't think anyone's saying jazz must include spontaneous improvisation. I'm not anyway, although I think it makes it a lot more interesting. Originally Posted by TOMMO
-
Why today’s musicians should follow classical greats ... and improvise
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven all thrilled audiences with their spontaneous improvisations. But today’s classical pianists have lost the art, according to a music scholar, who argues that performances suffer because they are so dependent on the printed score.
John Mortensen claims that such improvisation skills were all but lost by the 20th century and that few classically trained musicians can now do so in any style.
Why today’s musicians should follow classical greats ... and improvise | Music | The Guardian
-
Improvisation
Although jazz is considered difficult to define, in part because it contains many subgenres, improvisation is one of its defining elements. The centrality of improvisation is attributed to the influence of earlier forms of music such as , a form of folk music which arose in part from the work songs and field hollers of African-American slaves on plantations. These work songs were commonly structured around a repetitive call-and-response pattern, but early blues was also improvisational.
Classical music performance is evaluated more by its fidelity to the musical score, with less attention given to interpretation, ornamentation, and accompaniment. The classical performer's goal is to play the composition as it was written. In contrast, jazz is often characterized by the product of interaction and collaboration, placing less value on the contribution of the composer, if there is one, and more on the performer.[18] The jazz performer interprets a tune in individual ways, never playing the same composition twice. Depending on the performer's mood, experience, and interaction with band members or audience members, the performer may change melodies, harmonies, and time signatures.[19]
In early Dixieland, a.k.a. New Orleans jazz, performers took turns playing melodies and improvising countermelodies. In the swing era of the 1920s–'40s, big bands relied more on arrangements which were written or learned by ear and memorized. Soloists improvised within these arrangements. In the bebop era of the 1940s, big bands gave way to small groups and minimal arrangements in which the melody was stated briefly at the beginning and most of the piece was improvised. Modal jazz abandoned chord progressions to allow musicians to improvise even more. In many forms of jazz, a soloist is supported by a rhythm section of one or more chordal instruments (piano, guitar), double bass, and drums. The rhythm section plays chords and rhythms that outline the composition structure and complement the soloist.[20] In avant-garde and free jazz, the separation of soloist and band is reduced, and there is license, or even a requirement, for the abandoning of chords, scales, and meters.
Jazz - Wikipedia
-
zdub
Exactly, classical music is full of improvisation.
Reply With Quote
Mr Magic, guitar solo
Today, 05:45 AM in From The Bandstand