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The internet has a way of making me confused. I have two issues now.
A. Counting. A well established youtube jazz teacher made a video where he claims he is always counting the beat in his head and I should too. I do this when practicing to figure out rhytmic placements and stuff, but when actually playing it totally gets in the way. Wondering if it's just me, I searched for "counting" in this forum and came across the following quote:
B. "Find the clave in everything" which I think was posted by Jeff Matz. I have no idea what this means, except that the app Drum Genius (which is recommended by Barry Greene and everybody else) has a clave mode.
So two questions.
A. Do you actually count in your head when *playing*?
B. To me, clave is a latin rhythm. How can it be "in everything" and how do I find it?
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05-25-2021 02:56 AM
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Depends how you count. Some people count by playing the beat in their head but I doubt they can play a solo at the same time. Others count by playing a film in their head with the beats, they can play improv at the same time but not read sheet music.
Counting by stomping your foot or better, by moving your entire body seems to me the best way. Still not easy but very effective. Just like singing the notes you improvise: not easy but very effective.
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You don't think numbers.
You feel groove. Like you're dancing to it.
A lot of jazz is rooted in dance music.
Even when I have to count to figure out a novel rhythmic pattern, I quickly try to translate it into a drum pattern I can sing to myself. If I'm singing snare drum parts to myself, I nail the time better than if I count.
Anyway, that's my take. If this question is typical, you'll get a range of answers and all of them may be right for some.
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I just feel the beat somehow, I don’t count it. Eventually you get a feel for when 4 bars have passed, then 8 bars, then you get to feel where each section of a 32-bar AABA form is, and so on. It just has to become intuitive. Takes time, obviously.
I don’t know much about the clave. I have listened to it a bit in the drumgenius app (it has an option to overlay the clave beat on top of the drum patterns). So probably worth getting the app and listening to that, if you want to hear how the clave relates to other patterns.
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When had some free time (a student didn't show up), I often play 5/7 or 7/7 on drums. Just for fun.
Counting loudly helps.. couldn't be sure not to mess up the measures without counting.
But never counted while improvising. And never on 3/4 or 4/4.
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i’d also be interested in an explanation of
’find the clave in everything’
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It's important to separate the rhythm, which you can call time signature or any other word to describe that, and the clave.
For example: if you have a 3/4 rhythm when you're playing 16th notes and accent every 4th note you'll get a 3/4 rhythm where the clave is the 16th note subdivision accenting every 4th note.
In this case the clave is a 4 over 3 polyrhythm.
Another example in music: One of the most famous clave is the "Mission Impossible" clave on a 5/4 rhythm, which is the most used clave when playing 5/4. The clave is made by accenting the 1, upbeat of 2, the 4 and 5.
(Every "X" is an eight note.)
>____>___>__>
XX-XX-XX-XX-XX
1__2__3__4__5Last edited by Adam C.; 05-25-2021 at 08:00 AM.
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If I rephrase this as "if you have a 3/4 time signature when you're playing 16th notes and accent every 4th note you'll get a 3/4 rhythm where the clave is the 16th note subdivision accenting every 4th note. In this case the clave is a 4 over 3 polyrhythm." would I understand you correctly?
Originally Posted by Adam C.
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Very generally speaking, you could see "clave" as an internal rhythm in a given piece of music, that comes from what some instruments are playing. For example playing 8ths in the 3-3-2 rhythm, where you feel this "clave" instead of counting 1-2-3-4. Or playing most odd number rhythms where it is easier to play over the groove rather than counting. In most (all?) of latin music, people count time based on the songs clave rather than 1-2-3-4. Same thing happens in much of traditional music, where players many times cannot even tell which beat they are on, or where the measure actually starts, but they know exactly what's happening based on the songs rhythms, aka clave..
These rhythms are usually so important to the music that they dictate styles, chord changes, sections of the song, etc. Especially in latin music, the clave is certainly where all things begin and end!
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Listen to some Bo Diddley, there’s a clave in there.
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Correct, yes. Originally Posted by docsteve
Excusr my english, it's not the best.
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Clave is the heart of the music. It's the guide. If you can feel the clave in the music, and it's in all jazz, then you can groove. If you have a guidepoint that is internalized like the clave, the band can play pulse, and nobody has to be a "timekeeper."
Try it. Put on a swing beat, something mid tempo. Count 1,2,3,4 in your head and play.
Now think of a 3-2 clave, and play.
It's incredibly helpful when a drummer isn't playing a straight backbeat, or for unfamiliar time signatures.
Basically, it's a way of internalizing counting into something that actually grooves, not just 1, 2, 3, 4...
I'll try and make a video later about clave in a typical jazz swing, how to find it, which one to find, and what it gets you.
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Counting is like saying the letters of a word and sounding out the phonemes to pronounce it. You might do it a lot when learning to read, less as you learn more. As an accomplished reader you might never continue to do this even when encountering the occasional technical, obscure, or foreign origin word.
I notice that those most likely not to count have strong blues backgrounds. Nobody gets "lost" playing blues because of the nature of its forms - blues has a rigorous "harmonic rhythm" wherein the timing of the changes is crucial to the sound of the blues. It becomes an internalized foundation. Success with jazz needs a similar grasp of this kind of thing, which blues experience can help extend to jazz.
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Can somebody here define clave please? The definition that I have learned is that of a rhythm pattern that extends over two (or even more?) measures. The Bo Diddley /"shave and a haircut - two bits" pattern would be a typical clave then...
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I'm thinking mostly of a 3-2 son clave, which is a 2 bar pattern.
I might modify in for odd times, and honestly I'm not sure if it qualifies as a true clave then, but its the same basic idea, internal groove based on a repeating syncopated figure.
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Wikipedia has a detailed explanation: Originally Posted by TOMMO
Clave (rhythm) - Wikipedia
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Some examples:
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Thanks Jeff and Graham! Looks like I wasn't totally off-track then....
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A pianist I played with would ask "what's the chop?" when he didn't know the tune.
It refers to the underlying rhythmic pattern of the song, which everybody phrases with.
I like the term "chop" because it doesn't have any specific style-based implications. For example, some people use the term clave in a narrower sense than others.
We're talking here about a rhythmic motif.
For swing, I hear it as the ride cymbal pattern.
For rock, maybe the backbeat.
For reggae, the rhythm guitar and kick drum (to my ear, anyway).
Etc.
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OK; so I have no idea if I’m the ‘well established YouTube jazz teacher’ in question, but I do endorse counting out loud as a practice activity and have observed a definite improvement in students (and my own time) when they practice rhythms while speaking the beat out loud. I actually got the idea from Adam Neely. Originally Posted by frankhond
This can be ‘one two three four’ or ‘ten ten to ten ten to ten’ or ‘ta ka di mi’; it doesn’t matter. It’s not about the numbers; it’s about vocalising the pulse and keeping track of one.
The important thing is that you are developing a basic level of rhythmic awareness and independence (which are closely related); where you are in the bar and how the beats and up beats are lining up with the pulse. you learn at least where the ‘grid’ is; later on you can finesse the placement of upbeats etc.
Later you can try saying ‘click’ on the 2 and 4 like a metronome; hours of fun.
If you can’t do this, it’s not because it’s a bad exercise; it’s because your sense of rhythmic independence simply isn’t well developed. also, I’ve found another sticking point is when I just don’t know the stuff im trying to play well enough to focus on the on the beat; so it’s a great test for how well you know, for example, a bop head. It strikes me it’s better to focus your awareness in live performance on the time than on what you are trying to play.
Drummers eat this stuff for breakfast. Think of a drummer playing ride, hi hat on 2 and 4 and punctuating with bass and snare. That’s basic stuff for a jazz drummer too!
However, 1) you are not alone, most guitarists have no rhythm skills much, 2) you can set yourself above most other guitarists by actively working on this stuff and 3) I wouldn’t necessarily suggest you try and consciously vocalise the beat out loud when playing music in front of humans.
The idea is really to internalise the beat intuitively over time. For this, as a practice exercise it is pretty hard to beat. Also try it with comping .
in terms finding the clave in everything, that’s great advice and I would suggest trying to clap a clave along with a Parker solo to see how they line up. moose the Mooch for instance is very clearly in 3-2 clave. But it’s all over the music.
If you want to know how a clave can swing check out New Orleans second line beats. Drum Genius has some nice ones. Jazz obviously comes from the New Orleans parade band tradition, and it never lost that funk.
Ultimately I suppose the goal would be to sing the clave while you solo. I have to admit this one is currently beyond me, but it is a goal.
The greatest guitarist for rhythmic independence in my mind has got to be Joao Gilberto, for the way he sang and played. That was his whole thing! Lionel Loueke is also staggering at this sort of stuff.
Hope that helps. It gets easier!Last edited by christianm77; 05-25-2021 at 02:58 PM.
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I hear 2-3 as equally if not more common in jazz... a lot of swing records are in 2-3. plenty of bop heads too. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Definitely. I think for blowing, for starting out, the 3-2 is a little easier to latch on to...I think it's the Bo Diddley/Could You Be Loved principle Originally Posted by christianm77
But now I can't get Jump, Jive and Wail out of my head.
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Another great rhythm to latch on to when swinging would be the tumbao/conga beat...
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Wow, lots of great responses, thank you everyone!
Here is the video and the "well established teacher" I was thinking of. He starts talking about counting around 1.50.
So in my case, I have no problems counting when slowly "programming" new stuff. For example I'm working on Barry Greene's comping and he does a lot interplay between chords on 1 and chords on the last 8th note in a measure. I can count and play slowly, but when playing up to speed, no way I can count it like "1-2-3-4" at the same time and also play those chords on the offbeats, it messes me up completely. What I do is tap my foot on 1 and 3, move my body etc. But if I understand you correctly Jeff and Christian, I should also work on counting "1-2-3-4" while playing up to speed?
And then the clave thing. I know what clave is, but I had no idea people think clave when listening to swing. I'll have to listen to stuff and see if I hear it... if someone cares to make a dedicated video explaining it, that would be golden.
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