I am finally starting to hear when Bebop lines are played over Jazz Blues Progression

[AlsoRan]

A big part of learning to improvise can be trying to figure out what you like and why it sounds good. A few months back, I watched a great video on Jazz Blues posted by one of the forum's better players (IMHO). It was a Jazz Blues song and Ragman commented that the performer was playing "Bebop lines." I thought to myself, "What the heck does that mean?"

I think I finally understand and I have found that it helps to hear it when for example, a 2-5 is thrown into bar 4 of the Jazz Blues Progression. It just begs for a Bebop line that hits those chord tones, and it seems to me that is what Ragman was saying. Grahambop also helped when he wrote how he learned to play the "strong notes" on the beats of songs, which is a part of that Bebop sound.

I compare this to Herb Ellis, who seemed to use the Major Blues scale (and probably also the Minor Blues Scale, too). I am not the biggest fan of using the Major Blues all the time because it reminds me of the songs you hear when you see horse and buggies and that Stride Piano sound in old black and white film from the turn of the century.

So now, I am trying to bring in more chord extension notes and also to use the "Bebop Scale" more, along with more chormaticism. I hope to be able to mix it in with the Blues Scale tones to get the sound that I hear in my head. I am finally starting to hear the difference and identify what I like. I hope to post an example in the coming months.

[2bornot2bop]

Outstanding! It’s time to get after it!

[blille]

I am not the biggest fan of using the Major Blues all the time because it reminds me of the songs you hear when you see horse and buggies and that Stride Piano sound in old black and white film from the turn of the century.

Now I can’t ever play Major Blues again lol

[Christian Miller]

The tonality of blues changed quite a bit over the decades… but major blues was typical of Charlie Christian and Lester young’s style on the blues I chord.

Parker often favoured a major/ionian tonality and a minor blues sound on IV7.

later it became more common to play chord I as I7, and minor blues on the whole progression.

A Parker era blues is more like

Fmaj7 | C7 | Fmaj7 | F7 |
Bb7 | % | Am7 | / / Abm7 |
Gm7 | C7 | F6 | Gm7 C7 |

at least in terms of what Bird is outlining in his lines.

but there’s a lot of variations esp with bars 2, 6 and 8. Notice how the F7 appears in bar 4 which adds shape to the progression

[Bobby Timmons]

When you play a major blues, you can still adjust the tonality to your taste. There isn't a rule that you have to only use dominant chords and only use mix/blues scale language over that. You can actually use major chords for a more neutral and mellow tonality, then bring in mix/blues language for effect if you choose. I think this is along the lines of how you say you like the tonality feel in bebop blues. I'm totally the same way. It gets old always being in the dominant chord tonality for a major blues. So just change it up and use some major 6 chords with language based off that tonality.

[Christian Miller]

When you play a major blues, you can still adjust the tonality to your taste. There isn't a rule that you have to only use dominant chords and only use mix/blues scale language over that. You can actually use major chords for a more neutral and mellow tonality, then bring in mix/blues language for effect if you choose. I think this is along the lines of how you say you like the tonality feel in bebop blues. I'm totally the same way. It gets old always being in the dominant chord tonality for a major blues. So just change it up and use some major 6 chords with language based off that tonality.

tbf you are an organist so get to say what the changes are. Pianists or guitar players often unthinkingly plonk down a I7 chord so as a guitarist you have to deal with that sometimes.

As a comper I like to leave the sevenths out of the I chord so the soloist has more freedom at least at the top of a solo. Maybe out of the IV chord as well.

That said it’s not the end of the world if there’s a major seventh in the line and a minor seventh in the chord; in fact it’s fairly common on the old records. You do need a comper who actually listens to the soloist and doesn’t play across them and that’s really not a given, but this is a register and rhythm thing as much as the chords themselves.

there’s a lesson in there for me as a comper too. Anyway separate topic.

[digger]

I am not the biggest fan of using the Major Blues all the time because it reminds me of the songs you hear when you see horse and buggies and that Stride Piano sound in old black and white film from the turn of the century.

Whereas I love that sound and that music. I must practice my major blues :-)

[Bobby Timmons]

tbf you are an organist so get to say what the changes are. Pianists or guitar players often unthinkingly plonk down a I7 chord so as a guitarist you have to deal with that sometimes.

As a comper I like to leave the sevenths out of the I chord so the soloist has more freedom at least at the top of a solo. Maybe out of the IV chord as well.

That said it’s not the end of the world if there’s a major seventh in the line and a minor seventh in the chord; in fact it’s fairly common on the old records. You do need a comper who actually listens to the soloist and doesn’t play across them and that’s really not a given, but this is a register and rhythm thing as much as the chords themselves.

there’s a lesson in there for me as a comper too. Anyway separate topic.

True, good info. Was talking about more during practicing.

[AlsoRan]

The tonality of blues changed quite a bit over the decades… but major blues was typical of Charlie Christian and Lester young’s style on the blues I chord.

Parker often favoured a major/ionian tonality and a minor blues sound on IV7.

later it became more common to play chord I as I7, and minor blues on the whole progression.

A Parker era blues is more like

Fmaj7 | C7 | Fmaj7 | F7 |
Bb7 | % | Am7 | / / Abm7 |
Gm7 | C7 | F6 | Gm7 C7 |

at least in terms of what Bird is outlining in his lines.

but there’s a lot of variations esp with bars 2, 6 and 8. Notice how the F7 appears in bar 4 which adds shape to the progression

Thanks for this analysis, as I know mine is not the best. In my Jazz Blues journey, I have been looking at many different progressions and I have not even really addressed the Parker Blues, with that characteristic use of Major 7 chords and plenty of 2-5s. I also really love the Minor Jazz Blues progressions, but I have not gotten to it, either as I feel it will be a more natural fit for me as those minor scales were the first scales that I learned.

[AlsoRan]

Now I can’t ever play Major Blues again lol

Ha, ha! Yeah, I did not want to poo all over anyone's preference(s).

I guess the modern guys feel the same way about the Jazz from the 40's and 50's (my favorite era). It probably reminds them of black and white movies, and people wearing suits and ties, with clean-shaven faces and a head of slick-backed hair and smoke in the room.

I guess that it just seems every film about the depression has that kind of Major Blues piano playing and that is why I associate Major Blues with that era. I wonder if others have styles of music that kind of triggers them like this with bad associations?

[AlsoRan]

When you play a major blues, you can still adjust the tonality to your taste. There isn't a rule that you have to only use dominant chords and only use mix/blues scale language over that. You can actually use major chords for a more neutral and mellow tonality, then bring in mix/blues language for effect if you choose. I think this is along the lines of how you say you like the tonality feel in bebop blues. I'm totally the same way. It gets old always being in the dominant chord tonality for a major blues. So just change it up and use some major 6 chords with language based off that tonality.

I am just glad that I can finally hear and identify these differences. Its one thing to like something a lot, and another to know why you like it.

[AlsoRan]

Whereas I love that sound and that music. I must practice my major blues :-)

I remember you saying that you were a big fan of Major Blues in a different thread. I'm sorry to disparage it a little. It is just a personal taste, and I still have heard some nice songs with Major-type Blues tonality. Oscar Peterson and Joe Pass have a bunch. In traditional Blues, I seem to hear it a lot with BB King as well.

[blille]

Ha, ha! Yeah, I did not want to poo all over anyone's preference(s).

I guess the modern guys feel the same way about the Jazz from the 40's and 50's (my favorite era). It probably reminds them of black and white movies, and people wearing suits and ties, with clean-shaven faces and a head of slick-backed hair and smoke in the room.

I guess that it just seems every film about the depression has that kind of Major Blues piano playing and that is why I associate Major Blues with that era. I wonder if others have styles of music that kind of triggers them like this with bad associations?

Makes sense

Well, if I play Walter Wanderley at home my daughters want to play “the elevator game”, where they pretend they are in one because of the music.

[Reg]

Yea there are the little chord tones and approach note games between chords. And then you learn the patterns, and how to start on different chords tones and what somewhat resolutions to the next change become. Then extrapolate and develop more options.

Then you actually start playing better changes and more of them.... eventually thinking of single chords as Chord Patterns... which can have more harmonic implications. And then where to place them rhythmically... the strong weak thing (harmonic rhythm) with subdivisions. Anyway that how I was taught as a kid... And then try to give it your personal feel thing, LOL.

Then you realize... wow, I need to get my chops together.

[AlsoRan]

Yea there are the little chord tones and approach note games between chords. And then you learn the patterns, and how to start on different chords tones and what somewhat resolutions to the next change become. Then extrapolate and develop more options.

Then you actually start playing better changes and more of them.... eventually thinking of single chords as Chord Patterns... which can have more harmonic implications. And then where to place them rhythmically... the strong weak thing (harmonic rhythm) with subdivisions. Anyway that how I was taught as a kid... And then try to give it your personal feel thing, LOL.

Then you realize... wow, I need to get my chops together.

You were also a big help in me developing my ears and strategies. Thanks, Reg. I'm sorry for being a meathead for so long...!

[Bobby Timmons]

I am just glad that I can finally hear and identify these differences. Its one thing to like something a lot, and another to know why you like it.

Same with me. My teacher told me I should start learning how to create feelings with the music instead of only running through stuff. Then I have to figure out how to execute it. And I can also identify different devices that the pros use while I'm listening. It's good progress!

[AlsoRan]

Same with me. My teacher told me I should start learning how to create feelings with the music instead of only running through stuff. Then I have to figure out how to execute it. And I can also identify different devices that the pros use while I'm listening. It's good progress!

Here is another little practice that is helping my lines. I just recently started hearing how effective it is to start in one position and then slide into a chord tone from the next chord, playing it in a higher position.

Garrison Fewell and more recently, Rodney Jones, both have a lot of this in their playing. I can hear the difference it makes in the mood when you slide up into a different position and play in that area, making the line go brighter because of the higher notes you are playing. You can even do as Jens Larsen shows, and just let it end on that chord tone, and you will have successfully introduced that next chord and followed the changes.

So, I might start out with F Mixolydian at at fret 1, and when the harmony goes to Bb7, I might slide into fret 3 on the their string (the root note) and then I can play whatever scale I want.

I guess, I could even slide back if I want to bring the mood down a little.

[ChrisVane]

...A few months back, I watched a great video on Jazz Blues posted by one of the forum's better players (IMHO). It was a Jazz Blues song and Ragman commented that the performer was playing "Bebop lines." I thought to myself, "What the heck does that mean?

Could you post a link to that video please?

[AlsoRan]

Could you post a link to that video please?

Thoughts on Improvising Over Jazz Blues, Anyone?

Here is the link and the song is "Fried Pies. You will see a fellow who goes by the name "GrahamBop." It was his performance, combined with comments from him and Ragman, that made me suddenly start to understand how Bebop lines sound vs. using a lot of Blues lines that utilize the Blues Scales.

His performance had a high-quality backing track, a Gibson ES-175, and some great tone, which of course, can enhance the experience greatly. Graham even gives some personal tips on how he learned to play this way, mainly by developing his ear through the use of copying lines from the masters.

(It also showed me how playing a 2-5 in the blues progression, such as in measure 4, just begs for a nice 2-5-1 line to measure 5).

[grahambop]

Thanks Alsoran, I didn’t realise when this thread started that you were referring to my video. I had trouble finding it in the other thread you mentioned, so here it is again, if it helps anyone.

[ChrisVane]

Thank you Grahambop for the video. Channel subscribed! Awesome lines. Pure gold.

Thank you AlsoRun for the link to the thread. By the way, beside "THOUGHTS ON IMPROVISING OVER JAZZ BLUES" posts there, it's interesting for me what some people say about be-bop and that's reminded me what PAT METHENY said about "bebop language". Maybe I'll leave it here quoted:

"To me this is essential: you have to have a strong sense of bebop language to play any kind of jazz. And when I hear guys, whether they're free guys or fusion guys... that don't have the bebop language down, I always get bored. Because to me that's the foundation that everything else is built on. And in this sense I'm very conservative. I don't have too much tolerance for music that doesn't have that language as a part of it."

Link to the video ("Pat Metheny on learning Improvisation and Theory"):

(from ~2 minute on...)

[AlsoRan]

Thank you Grahambop for the video. Channel subscribed! Awesome lines. Pure gold.

Thank you AlsoRun for the link to the thread. By the way, beside "THOUGHTS ON IMPROVISING OVER JAZZ BLUES" posts there, it's interesting for me what some people say about be-bop and that's reminded me what PAT METHENY said about "bebop language". Maybe I'll leave it here quoted:

"To me this is essential: you have to have a strong sense of bebop language to play any kind of jazz. And when I hear guys, whether they're free guys or fusion guys... that don't have the bebop language down, I always get bored. Because to me that's the foundation that everything else is built on. And in this sense I'm very conservative. I don't have too much tolerance for music that doesn't have that language as a part of it."

Link to the video ("Pat Metheny on learning Improvisation and Theory"):

(from ~2 minute on...)

Thanks for the kind words, Chris.

You have helped me to further realize why my taste in Jazz is the way it is. I may also be pining for a little of that Bebop language in the Jazz that I have heard, like Pat Metheny.