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How to improvise?
*is it accumulating an arsenal of licks and lines? (Building vocabulary)
*is it hearing melodies inside your head? (Ear Training)
*or is it knowing lots of head knowledge or theory? (Gatekeeper)
These are the questions that infiltrate my mind when it comes to soloing and improvisation. I'm not really sure whether to amass a huge vocabulary of licks or train my inner ear to jumpstart my soloing. Or there must be a gatekeeper knowledge of theory that is withheld from me.
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02-27-2023 07:57 PM
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All of the above. Everything you've ever played, heard, copied, listened to, studied... it all goes in. That's why it's so important to be selective about the stuff you become involved with.
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1 and 2.
3 comes in later when you want to know WHY something works. But generally, I don't think you need much "theory" to start out, just fundamentals--fretboard knowledge, chord shapes and arpeggios, how to build chords, etc.
Re: not sure what to do-- if you amass a bunch of licks from records by ear, you ARE ear training.
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Starting with licks is a time honoured way to go
Originally Posted by Stim
My suggestion is focus less on the improvisation process for now, and more on sounding good. Beg borrow and steal for the players you like. Competence breeds confidence.
nah. Experience and exposure are the two most important things for sounding goodOr there must be a gatekeeper knowledge of theory that is withheld from me.
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The real secret of jazz improvising:
It's gonna take some WORK.
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This is the big question I remember struggling with early on. You are thinking, you can practice all you want but if you don't have a clear idea about where is it that you're trying to get to, how can you be sure you're practising the right way? You want to have some idea about what sort of a process improvisation is so that this understanding can inform how you practice to get there. Moreover, there should be a simple answer to this that everyone who can improvise can tell you, yet they all seem to be saying very vague and contradictory things about the improvisation process.
Some of the advice that people give are about generally useful things that have a more "supporting role" in the process. Two of the most prominent ones are "listen to the records", "train your ears". There are many avid jazz listeners and historians who can't play jazz. There are many musicians in different styles who have monster ears who can't improvise jazz to save their lives. So obviously you can't just buy a bunch of jazz records and an ear training app and expect to get there. There must be a more concrete, pragmatic and direct component to practising improvisation.
I'm not a master improviser but I've come a long way over the years. I'd say the answer to your question is very simple. Jazz improvisation involves playing musical phrases that work within the harmonic context of a tune. Harmonic context that individual phrases work against may vary in length. Phrases can be specific to each chord or generalised to parts of the progression. Phrases also should have some sort of logical, thematic connection so the listeners don't start yawning. All you have to do is to reason backwards from this basic description to assess your progress and practice structure.Last edited by Tal_175; 02-28-2023 at 03:02 PM.
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Everything you listed is important, BUT none of it is as important as just knowing the song so well you can play it in your sleep.
Once you really know the song, the melodies will begin to flow.
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Mic Drop. Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
Really though...almost ALL of the time the song gives you all the information you need.
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To me it has to be hearing melodies in your head and playing them by ear. The alternative would be (while playing on a tune) thinking words that are the names of scales, concepts, etc, while the music flies by. You have to be hearing and playing music.
Thought experiment: imagine humming a cool melody while theoretically analyzing that melody at the same time!!?! You can't focus on two languages of expression (notes and words) at the same time.
The places for theory, and lick and lines are at practice time. This all gets fed into your ears as raw material which hopefully generates cool melodies in your head to play when performing.
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The posters so far have given it to you. But the 'simple answer', as you can see, involves a lot of work, study, and above all experimentation, otherwise called practice. You've got to try things out, see what works. It's not as simple as 'do this, do that, and bingo'! Originally Posted by Tal_175
If they're just fans or historians there's no reason why they should be able to play it themselves.There are many avid jazz listeners and historians who can't play jazz.
Again, if they play styles other than jazz why would they be able to play jazz? They may still be struggling with their own style!There are many musicians in different styles who have monster ears who can't improvise jazz to save their lives.
You sound as though you're looking for the magic answer. There isn't one except hard work. Be prepared to fail dismally for quite some time till you get somewhere... unless you're supremely gifted, in which case you wouldn't have started the thread!There must be a more concrete, pragmatic and direct component to practising improvisation.
Absolutely right, but simply stating that won't make you a competent improviser.Jazz improvisation involves playing musical phrases that work within the harmonic context of a tune.
All you have to do... True, but all you have to do may involve years of plugging away at it till you've got at least somewhere recognisable as jazz improv.All you have to do
I'm sorry it's all so doom-laden but anyone who says 'Oh, just do X,Y,Z and you're there!' is not telling you the truth.
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The 2 things you mentioned: musicianship obviously, including ear intuition and vocab; then raw theory and applied theory. However, I realized a 3rd category that's extremely important: technical skills.
You must have the material physically worked out to be able to execute it fluently or it's not going to happen adequately. Think about it, when you're playing, do you think up how to do something, either with your ear or your theory framework, and then go directly to being musical with it? No. You can draw on those things, but it has to be in your muscle memory for you to be able to execute it fluently.
Reg constantly says this and it took me a while to get it but it's true. Technical can seem like a non musical term. When someone says 'he's a technical player' it has kind of negative connotations. However, think what moves laypeople with instrumental music. It's rhythmic prowess usually, and technical mastery. Or at least some sort of technical proficiency as part of the excitement.
A lot of achieving this is playing the dang tune constantly so that you have it mastered and can play it in your sleep like the others said, my teacher as well. You can also make up exercises that relate directly to your playing.
A raw theory gain related to melody that I came up with recently is that there's a tendency to think raw theory doesn't lead to authentic music. However this isn't true, you just have to structure and apply the theory correctly. I realized that if you draw upon scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics as raw theory for melody and solos, it results in authentic solo melody because that's literally how solos are shaped. They are not shaped as scales only, or scales and arps only.
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Last big hint:
When you listen, and you should listen a lot, go for the big players, those who are recognised experts, masters, whatever. You won't be able to do it yourself but nevertheless don't bother with second-rate performers of whatever ilk. Head for quality, improve your ear and taste. It'll show later in what you do despite yourself. Seriously.
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I'm not looking for an answer. You completely misunderstood the context of every word I wrote. The extent to which you replies are misaligned with my post is in fact quite remarkable. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Then what are you looking for? Why did you start the thread?
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Well I do think there are concrete answers to music questions. However you need a master teacher to get there, also included that you have some sort of education and spend time working at it and figuring things out yourself. Everything isn't vague and mysterious. It is if you have your head in the sand and won't educate yourself or seek out a qualified teacher.
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Lol. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Originally Posted by ragman1
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should’ve gone to specsavers! Originally Posted by ragman1
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A lot of good responses to this thread.
I think it's interesting that there are perhaps as many ways to improvise as there are players. And yet, somehow, there tends to be agreement about who is good at it -- even though their processes may be very different.
Speaking just for myself, my goal is to imagine a melody and play it instantly. To do that, I need to feel the harmony of the song - which takes repetition. Often, I play in situations where I have to solo on changes I've never seen or heard - so some knowledge of chord tones, tonal centers and scales comes in very handy. I haven't spent as much time as many players on learning licks -- and I strongly wish I had. So I'd say I used 1, 2 and 3 and not necessarily in the optimal proportions.
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How to improvise. Learn a head, play it, play some abysmal slop, play the head again.
Learn some licks by ear, realize this is so basic and it sounds great. Play that head again, improvise more abysmal slop, play head again. Wonder why Hank Mobley sounded so much better than you. Try again.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by Tal_175
I am [Strikethrough]Spartacus [/Strikethrough] Stim Originally Posted by grahambop
I am [Strikethrough]Spartacus [/Strikethrough] Stim
I am [Strikethrough]Spartacus [/Strikethrough] Stim
Anyhoo ... the OP has probably absquatulated. But I'll add one thought to this gem of a thread: enough already with how hard it is and how much work it is to learn to improvise. It's fun, not work. And it's easy (at whatever level of musicianship and knowledge you happen to be at). You just have to do it. What can be hard, and can seem like work because it involves structure and repetition is improving your level of musicianship and increasing your knowledge. But if it feels like drudgery, there's something wrong with your approach.
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Practice soloing only? You'd probably benefit from connecting arps over the changes in time and across the neck. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by John A.
Nah, you're just one of those people who thinks work is fun. You probably even like washing the dishes, dontcha?
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I am the Tom Sawyer of dishwashing. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I actually started to do that this week. I wrote a chorus long etude for Satin Doll that is all scales and arps. It sounds like crap but it's almost straight 8th's, gotta start somewhere. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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That's good stuff. If you can get to where you can improvise exercises like that mostly correctly, it isn't that much of a leap to add in some riffs and other contours, phrase, and get jazz solos going.
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