Learn sax or piano, then guitar?

[princeplanet]

I'm interested to hear from those that learnt either sax or piano prior to learning guitar. Specifically, what do you feel are the main differences in the learning experience? Also, did learning the one instrument effect the way you play the other? Do you get frustrated that you cant do certain things that come easy on your first instrument? Do you find certain advantages to guitar over your other instrument? Is it as easier to improvise what you hear "in your head" on your other instrument than on guitar? What is the weirdest thing about guitar for you? The synchronization of hands? The Irregular tuning? Do you think you view the instrument differently than other folk who only play guitar?
Any thing else you wanna say about the difference?

Thanks, just curious....

[FatJeff]

I learned neither sax nor piano before I picked up the guitar, but I did play the violin from age 7 until I was about 13.

I think learning a single-note instrument first (like sax, or violin) has both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of learning how to play the violin first are that I learned to sight-read single-note melodies pretty well, and I gained a good ear (no frets). And it's easier to focus in on minute things in the sound of your tone production, since you're only listening to a single note. The disadvantages of violin are much the same as for guitar: I had no clear idea why intervals were called what they were, like I would have gotten if I had learned the piano first. And I could not read polyphonic music (chords) at all. Not to mention I didn't understand any clef other than the treble clef.

If I could start all over again, I would learn to play the piano first, then move on to other instruments. The theoretical knowledge you easily get just having the notes laid out in front of you linearly is worth the steep learning curve.

[Kochavi]

I considered playing sax at the beginning of the year, but finally came to a conclusion that I'd rather focus on the guitar 100%. I don't know if you are asking these questions in context of starting to play either sax or piano, but if you are you need to think real good if you have the time and will to play each of them well as you would have played if it was your only one. If not, in my opinion there's no point to it.

As to advantages and disadvantages, I think that the sax's main disadvatage is the lack of harmony of any single note instrument, and also that it is less versatile than guitar. The sax has a very distinct sound, that doesn't fit everywhere, for example, it will sound very alienated when used with styles like ethnic jazz. The guitar will pretty much fit anywhere, but the piano is the master of this, as it really fits very well anywhere. One of my issues is that I feel the guitar cannot really scream out like the sax. The piano is almost a limitless instrument, as all of the harmonies and notes are just in front of you, unlike the guitar. The guitar is also a lot more visual dependent than the sax, and it has become less note orienated for some reason. Like Jeff, I think the piano is a great base for all music, and is definatly worth learning at some point.

[princeplanet]

The reason I ask is to know how it is for another instrumentalist to cope with the limitations of the guitar. Do they express their improvs easier on piano or sax? Piano and sax are where my fave soloists are cutting their schtick. I know at least one first rate jazz pianist who sounds very clunky on guitar. I wonder if any one knows of a great sax player who is also a very fluent jazz guitar improvisor? Seems like guys on these instruments are better improvisors than guitarists and seem to get there a hell of a lot quicker. Why is that?

[TommyD]

The reason I ask is to know how it is for another instrumentalist to cope with the limitations of the guitar. Do they express their improvs easier on piano or sax? Piano and sax are where my fave soloists are cutting their schtick. I know at least one first rate jazz pianist who sounds very clunky on guitar. I wonder if any one knows of a great sax player who is also a very fluent jazz guitar improvisor? Seems like guys on these instruments are better improvisors than guitarists and seem to get there a hell of a lot quicker. Why is that?

Wind instruments are easier to learn and to play. Guitar is more difficult because its limitations are fewer, its range is (much) greater, and it is multi-harmonic. Some say that guitar is more difficult than piano. The reason that it is so commonly used by people who aren't particularly expert on it is because it's easily portable, it's cheap, its sounds are pretty even for beginners, and you can play it almost anywhere. Joe Pass said he learned how to finger-pick while sitting on the couch watching TV at Synanon - without even thinking about which finger he was using.
tommy/

[peterk1]

Hi Princeplanet,

I'm a sax/guitar double.

Main differences in the learning experience:
o on sax you have a focus on dynamics that you don't have with guitar
o on guitar you have a lot of chordal work and rhythm work that you don't have with sax.

You will become very, very picky about what a good guitar tone is. The sound of a single note on sax is so, solid and powerful, it will become difficult to listen to guitar playing that has a "plink, plink" sound to it. You'll definitely try more to emulate the sound of the sax when playing melodies than the other way around. You probably won't succeed at equaling it, but just trying to will make your guitar playing better.

You will probably also try to be less pattern based in your guitar learning. Sax is not as well suited to mindless noodling - if you're not actually thinking about the physical note you're going to play next, then you're not going to be able to play it. Just like on a piano - pianos can't be lazy and slide a chord one fret up - pianists actually have to physically think about each note in the chord that will move. It's the same on sax.

The nice thing about the guitar/sax combination is that they go really well together. Guitar comping for sax is an awesome sound. If you can do both parts of that equation, you can have a lot of fun recording tunes - you don't even really need bass or drums to get stuff that's worthwhile. Saxes and guitars doing melodies in unison sounds really good too, because guitar has a lot of the same bag of tricks - you can do slides, bends, vibrato on both instruments so you can get similar phrasing.

I'm interested to hear from those that learnt either sax or piano prior to learning guitar. Specifically, what do you feel are the main differences in the learning experience? Also, did learning the one instrument effect the way you play the other? Do you get frustrated that you cant do certain things that come easy on your first instrument? Do you find certain advantages to guitar over your other instrument? Is it as easier to improvise what you hear "in your head" on your other instrument than on guitar? What is the weirdest thing about guitar for you? The synchronization of hands? The Irregular tuning? Do you think you view the instrument differently than other folk who only play guitar?
Any thing else you wanna say about the difference?

Thanks, just curious....

[princeplanet]

Cheers Peter, some good insights there. Which are you better at? Is it easier to play quick jazz phrases on sax? Is it easier to improvise on sax? Which instrument do you find most "musical", and which is most satisfying?

[peterk1]

It's probably easier to make a phrase sound better on sax, because you have total control over the dynamics of each note. When you're playing a wind instrument, your focus is entirely on melody so you'll become a bit of a melodic monster with time and thinking of little details that most guitar/piano players wouldn't even contemplate.

On the other hand transposing that nice little melody to other keys on sax is going to require a lot of work - on guitar, you get most of the other 12 keys for free a lot of the time.

Improvising is equally challenging on both instruments for different reasons. On guitar, the challenge is dealing with being able to play the same notes on different strings, thinking well enough in advance that you don't find yourself boxed in by previous fingering choices, learning scales as multiple patterns all over the neck without being conscious of each note and then trying to link those patterns smoothly together at run-time and then being aware of the notes. It's a little backwards.

On sax, you really need to know your scales at a much more intimate level and be aware of each note and each key-center change. There's no simple way to transpose and reuse a phrase already learned without doing the work to relearn the phrase in the new key. You also have a lot more phrasing options and ways of attacking/decaying a note. Wind players can get downright anal about this type of stuff.

On guitar, strings and picks are pretty much consistent all the time, but sax reeds can be frikking temperamental. You buy a box of 10 for 30 bucks and then try to find the 2-4 good ones in the box and throw the rest out! Finding the perfect reed and trying to figure out how to make it last forever becomes an obsession.

In terms of satisfaction, there's is nothing cooler than playing a complete jazz tune by yourself on guitar. On sax, you're always bemoaning the need to have something else in back of you.

Cheers Peter, some good insights there. Which are you better at? Is it easier to play quick jazz phrases on sax? Is it easier to improvise on sax? Which instrument do you find most "musical", and which is most satisfying?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Improvising is equally challenging on both instruments for different reasons. On guitar, the challenge is dealing with being able to play the same notes on different strings, thinking well enough in advance that you don't find yourself boxed in by previous fingering choices, learning scales as multiple patterns all over the neck without being conscious of each note and then trying to link those patterns smoothly together at run-time and then being aware of the notes. It's a little backwards.

I like that terminology. Or am I being a computer geek?

[peterk1]

Sorry man! My fault for doing this stuff while I'm at work.
Practicing = compile time
Playing = run-time

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

No, I like it!

[princeplanet]

Me too!

[peterk1]

Just reading through this thread again from the top.

Someone up above claimed that the range of the guitar is far greater than sax. That's not true. The basic range of a sax is about 2.5 octaves and if you're really ambitious and like torturing your neighbors you can learn how to squeeze an extra octave out. Range of guitar is 3.5 octaves and closer to to 3 if you're playing an archtop. The range under your fingers at any given moment is about 2.5 octaves. The practical range of guitar and sax are more or less equivalent.

Regarding the versatility of piano. I know some piano players who get royally frustrated at not being able to vary their attacks very much. On piano you can hit a note hard, hit a note soft, maybe do a semi-tone slide. But there's no vibrato, no bending. You actually have way more options on guitar for single-note lines.

There was a question about speed up above. It's usually easier to play faster on a sax - the instrument was pretty much designed for speed. On guitar, you hit a small speed-bump every time you change strings - on sax you only hit a speed bump when you cross over the octave break at two spots over the instruments range. Your sound quality changes quite dramatically as you cross these spots so quite a lot of practice time is dedicated to trying to even out your sound in those different regions.

[Joe Dalton]

Here is what I find about multi instrumental playing. When playing the piano I feel clunky, this is not a limitation of the instrument but on my part. My mind is completely used to the guitar, what to me is natural on the guitar is much more conscious on the piano. I am able to play both sure, but only 1 to me feels completely natural.

Like someone above said, when they play guitar they try to make it sound like a sax and feel like they can't... which is obvious as they are different instruments. I think when we are so engrossed in one instrument and we learn a new one there will always be some overlap in the knowledge feeling that we apply which is neither a limitation or a leg up, it just leads to different sounds.

[Shadow of the Sun]

When it comes to guitar versus sax (or, indeed, just about any other wind instrument), they both have advantages over the other. Thing is, each advantage is also a disadvantage.

A lot of people talk about how guitar is harder than sax or other wind instruments. Thing is, in some ways it is, in some it isn't. With guitar, for example, it's actually really easy to transpose- you slide up a few frets, or change strings and then account for the B string. With a sax, you can't do that.

Similarly, scales are easier to pick up on guitar- you learn one pattern, transpose it, and so on.

With sax, though, the advantage is that you get a LOT more ear training. You know the advice that you take a lick or line and play it in all 12 keys? On guitar, the transposing is easy- the pattern stays almost exactly the same.

With the sax, though, you have to pick the root note, and then figure the melody out by ear again. 11 times.

So, yeah. Sax gives you better ear training, which is a real advantage, but the guitar is easier to transpose and pick up scales...which is an advantage.

Personally, though, I think the ear training is more worth it.

[Samuelrichard12]

I learned sax when I was of 10yrs but not the piano and I started learning guitar when I was of 16yrs and I was comfortable with it. I don't think that one should learn sax then piano and then guitar. You can start with guitar.

[NSJ]

Great thread! I have an alto sax (started out on trumpet, but couldn't get a good sound out of it, gave up) that I've been meaning to get up to speed on.

I think working on your tone/intonation is a huge huge preliminary thing on sax--lots and lots of "long tones". The fingerings, octave keys aren't too bad. It's just working on the tone/intonation that's huge.

The other thing to think about is transposition---guitar music is written in concert pitch (actually, though, it's written on octave higher than actually played--Johnny Smith put out his method book written both in the bass and treble clef, and this was controversial--he wanted to show that the guitar is a mid range instrument, capable of playing in both ranges.) But as has been said, many guitarists struggle with treble clef, let alone adding on the bass clef.

Great points, Peter C, particularly the one about intention and lack of "noodling/letting the fingers do the walking".

[saponsky]

you can do slides, bends, vibrato on both instruments so you can get similar phrasing.

Really? didn't know it could be done with a sax.

[saponsky]

Sorry man! My fault for doing this stuff while I'm at work.
Practicing = compile time
Playing = run-time

phrasing = refactoring? lol

[vs2313]

Learn the trumpet!

I played trunpet and piano before i played guitar. I think it help just because of haveing that musical background.

[Kochavi]

I want to refer to the sound issue.

I think sound is a very neglected topics among jazz guitarist. In classical guitar, a lot of the study is concentrated about sound producing, left hand and right hand. I was amazed with how many sounds you can get out of one guitar. I'm talking about natural sound, not the amplified sound and electroinc. I just think it something we need to think about. Sound is very important, and I think us jazz guitarist should be aware of it just like classical guitarists and sax players.

[princeplanet]

I want to refer to the sound issue.

I think sound is a very neglected topics among jazz guitarist. In classical guitar, a lot of the study is concentrated about sound producing, left hand and right hand. I was amazed with how many sounds you can get out of one guitar. I'm talking about natural sound, not the amplified sound and electroinc. I just think it something we need to think about. Sound is very important, and I think us jazz guitarist should be aware of it just like classical guitarists and sax players.

Agreed, tone and dynamics. We guitarists lack both in comparison to many other instruments. I make a habit of practicing unamplified so I can concentrate on the sound my hands and fingers make. I then seek a way of amplifying that is true to this tone and range of dynamics. Most of us like to practice the way we intend to perform, ie, amplified, arguing that the amp is ostensibly part of the instrument, as the piano board is a part of the piano. But pianists have way more dynamics than most guitarists as it's the amplifier that usually unfaithfully represents the flesh borne articulation (unlike the piano board). Listen to Segovia, or even the unamplified Django, there's dynamics! Infact, listen to the amplified Django, still very dynamic. The habit of many years without an amplifier.....

[dwadrum]

Interesting thread! I have been playing music professionally in a jazz context for about 14 years now, first as a drummer, then as a pianist. Most people know me as a pianist. Several years ago I picked up the guitar after not playing it very much since my teens. I had several reasons for wanting to play guitar more. One was that it was my first instrument and I played in punk bands back in the day before picking up the drums. Another reason is that, although I absolutely love piano, and nothing feels better to me than playing on high quality grand pianos that are in tune, still a majority of music that I listen to is driven by guitar. Yet another reason is the portability of guitar. It's easier to play in different keys on guitar than on piano and a lot of guitar voicings instantly sound good whereas the same voicings on piano take quite a bit of work, especially drop 2, etc. Once you know one grip on guitar you can move it anywhere up and down the neck, not so on piano. I agree with other people on this forum that to master any instrument takes a lot of work. Currently I have limited access to a piano so the guitar allows me to continue to practice more often that I would be able to otherwise. The layout of the piano makes it easy to see everything, but I think the guitar is more melodically intuitive, one reason so many people play the guitar as opposed to piano. I love them both! Both have advantages and disadvantages. I've written a little bit about my experience of learning guitar on my educational blog: Whatever you do don't play guitar!

When I started playing guitar again, one of my friends said to me, "Don't play guitar! You're going to put us out of work!" While I hardly think that is the case, still it has been a welcome and ongoing musical challenge.

[jayx123]

I played tenor sax before taking the guitar. I agree with all said about the dynamic and also the sustain differences. I think for me at least the guitar is much more graphic containing different patterns, when improvising you know what a certain graphical pattern sounds like, in sax at least for me I had to think of the chord tones literally, while in the guitar you think of the chord and the arp graphical shapes will "light up" I think improvising on the guitar is easier

[voxwerx]

If you at least try something else, you'll find out what "fits" best for you. I started on Piano- and just never "got it" or really even liked it. 5 years later I started on guitar and everything just came together for me- and all that stuff I did on piano started to make sense. So, even though I hate to admit it, taking piano lessons were worth it. My hope is that everyone gets a chance to take guitar lessons from someone who thinks of a guitar as a "real" instrument. I've been in too many groups/ensembles where the instructor thought you could only learn theory on a piano (now entering "Soap Box" mode) Guitar is one of the BEST instruments for teaching theory- it doesn't discriminate what key you are in- there are no "Black keys" or extra "half keys." On guitar, a half step is a half step, and a whole step is a whole step. You don't have to learn a completely different way to finger a scale because you changed keys (ok, maybe if you are still stuck playing open chords and open notes). Guitars are serious instruments with a great pedigree that deserve some respect! (soap box mode off) Choir, you may now return to your regularly scheduled sermon....