counting during guitar improvisation

[bobbyatopk]

hey, i have been teaching my self classical guitar for a couple of years and im trying to begin learning jazz as well.

i learned to play all the 5 scale shapes up the neck in the key of c and i am practicing improvising over a ii-V progression (without the I chord for now) im doing abit of practice in each scale shape.

my problem is that i don't know if i should be counting in my head when im improvising? so when i play something fast i would have to say 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 etc...

this seems quite hard. the other option i thought would be to just hear the chords changing and feel the rhythm (my ear will need abit of work for that)

any way, after two bars i usualy end up just aimlessly noodling about so any advice would be greatly appreciated

thanks

[billkath]

How about buying a metronome? Perhaps your guitar tuner has one built in. If not-they are cheap-ish-if you buy an electronic one. If not-perhaps you could download one from the net?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Are you playing solo or over chords? It's definitely worth using something like BIAB or a looper, then I would listen to the chords -- always a good idea! I mean, when you sing, how much counting do you do?

[musicalbodger]

There is a metronome at FREE METRONOME SOFTWARE - Best Metronome .com

Start real sloooow and gradually speed up as you improve.

I may get shouted down for this but I'd go out and buy a playalong (something like Aebersold's Maiden Voyage), learn one tune that you're already familiar with and play it over and over with the track. After you've got the tune wedged firmly in your brain, try improvising a couple of notes per bar and the tune will still be playing in your head, relax and your counting will be automatic. Do this with a few other pieces and your timing will improve. Tap your foot.

[bobbyatopk]

hey guys thanks for the quick responses !

@billkath, i actually have a metronome already. what kind of things would you suggest doing with it (scales, arps, improvising solo or with changes)? and should i count when i use the metronome ? or just feel the 4/4ishnes

@bigdaddy, you have actually just brought up a question that has been subconsciously bugging me for ages (regarding solo playing)! when i am playing solo doing a ii v i or i iv v i dont even try to keep track of how many bars i have been playing etc, i wasn't even sure if it was possible lol. so would you recommend using a metronome and counting whist playing solo?
my original question was referring to recently starting to use a backing track to practice single line melodies. but presumably the answer will apply to playing solo and with backing track ?

EDIT:
@musicalbodger thanks for the ideas, so you would be suggesting more of a 'feel the rhythm' approach rather than trying to actually count in your head?

thanks

[musicalbodger]

so you would be suggesting more of a 'feel the rhythm' approach rather than trying to actually count in your head?

It's got to be in your body. Can you imagine counting to So What? That's 16 bars/Dm 8bars/Ebm 8 bars/Dm. So once you come off the Ebm you'd be counting 24 bars. Long time ago, I tried it, it doesn't work. Others may disagree but I think the only way is to get the rhythm in your soul by learning melodies and the counting becomes automatic.

[drobniuch]

Select @ first a single progression...eg. II V I VI write it on the paper many times and underline it with lines with title like P-like PLAY, and R-like REST, the P and the R lines should go not only from bar to bar but from a 1/4 bar to a 2/4 of the 3rd in a row bar etc. U need to understand that U're not ready 4 the whole tune.. if U cant control when U want to R and P @ first lern to controll it (it's rally hard).. then after a time try it with tunes.. remeber it is not in manners of how many houers to practice but how many time you try to do it so don't force U self and learn something parraller..

[billkath]

Bobby-I think metronomes are great for practicing your scales and arpeggios, but not so great for practicing improvisation. Why? Because there is no "law" that you mut be playing 8 or 16 notes per bar in improv. My opinion is that of the other guys- you'd be better off getting something like Band in a box-about 100 bucks--entering a chord progression and improvising over that. You can't "swing" to a metronome.

[Reg]

Get the metronome...or another time keeping device, good time is where you start in jazz. Working on time is one of the many skills you practice to become a musician. Best Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For jazz (versus scales :-), I find the metronome more useful when practicing comping than improvising. You can set it slow so that it only beeps once or twice per measure, rather than every beat, and work on improving your timing while comping that way.

[drobniuch]

Sorry, but this is bollocks, drobniuch. How can you tell someone whom you've never met, or heard play, that they aren't ready for a tune? Such arrogance and what a way to destroy someone's fragile confidence.

What the hell is music about if not to play tunes? Music is about fun, communication, and being human, it's not about technical mastery. That comes with time.

Of course you're ready to play tunes, bobbyatopk, they will help with your timing and you'll learn when to pause or rest because if you don't the tune won't sound right. The more tunes you learn the more variations you'll learn in fingering as well as timing. Do this along with all the other excercises. And whenever someone tells you emphatically that what you're doing is not right tell them what Mick Goodrick says in Advancing Guitarist, "In music there's always more than one way to do things and you do what works for you." I paraphrased him there as I was working from memory.

One other thing to help your timing, listen to jazz, listen to jazz, listen to jazz, absorb the feel, sing along with solos you know from repeated listening. Music is aural, it's easier to learn by listening and copying what you HEAR rather than visually off a sheet of paper. And, as BigDaddy said practice along with BIAB or a looper so you're hearing the chords too.

gosh I see U had some bad experiance withe a teacher or friend who said U're bad in playing.. 4 me critiqe is the best way to know what's wrong and any advise is good even yours.. now I know that in some people opinion I could hurt someones fellings-I did not meant to do it, really. Im not the kind of guys who things Im the better then the rest, 4 me a good guitarist is a man who has got a desire to learn so everybody on this forum R good guitarists

Back to the point.. I only say that trying to improvise over a whole tune, thinking about scales, when to rest and when not, and counting realy is too much and a bad idea in fact trying this could frustrate.. and U have right don't stop to learn tunes only when someone told U..

MY ADVISE:
if u can don't change u're practice rutine but add this to it:
1. Get a simple progression and do the R P
2. improvise only with metronome with no scecyfic scales at all and do the R P
3. improvise alone (even no metronome) only you're feets taping and do the R P
4. improvise with no jazz music that U like (with not so many chords) I like to do it with DnB or Chillout .. e.g. Bonoobo and do the R and P

[drobniuch]

You can't "swing" to a metronome.

Yes U can
U only must do it like Emilly Remler said.. The beat of the metronom on 2 and 4 and remeber to use Swing 8ts

[Gramps]

You'll be in trouble if you're trying to count out measures while also trying to solo. You should however, have the pulse of the song firmly in your grasp and know where the 1 falls.

Metronomes are great and as mentioned, if you set it to play the 2 and 4 you have more room to play with the groove by swinging or playing a bit on top of or behind the beats. This shoots down Bills comment that "Because there is no "law" that you mut be playing 8 or 16 notes per bar in improv." You can have the metronome play 8 or 16 beats per measure but there are better ways. Besides, you don't need to play a note just because the metronome clicks.

Bottom line: Get in the pocket of the groove, know where the 1 is and what is coming up chord wise and don't try to count 1 e and a 2 e and a.... when jamming. Only count like that when practicing if you need to.

[musicalbodger]

gosh I see U had some bad experiance withe a teacher or friend who said U're bad in playing..

My original point is that you are assuming too much and making the wrong assumptions.
1. What do you mean when you say the OP is not ready to play tunes yet? That is the first thing anyone should do when picking up an instrument for the first time. What a way to put people off music and the joys of playing. Did you learn to drive by sitting in a car in a garage and playing with the gear stick or did you get in and drive? What a destructive thing to say to anybody. Music is music and it is about performance, it is not about technical excellence. That comes with time. Anyone is ready to play tunes whenever they feel like it. There are no set rules especially if you have no intimate knowledge of the person concerned.
2. Your assumption about me is completely wrong. I have never had a teacher, I am completely self-taught and have had no experience of people saying I'm a bad player. Most people actually enjoy my groove. I am, as is everyone on this forum, an eternal student. I do, however have a great deal of experience in the arts as a sculptor (again self-taught but with work in a number of national museums & collections) and musician and I have taught a number of students in both fields. i.e. I know what I'm talking about.

Over to you.

ps U is spelled you, @ is spelled at, R is spelled are and 4 is spelled four. Perhaps you shouldn't write until you've learned to spell properly.

pps I accept that English is probably not your first language and there may be some misunderstanding regarding this, but my points still stand.

[Gramps]

Pretty cold attacking someones spelling especially since english isn't everyones native language. (It is mine but my spelling still sucks) Besides, many people who grew up with the web use shortcuts like u or @. The lack of punctuation bothers me but if it's too bad I just quit reading and move on.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

ps U is spelled you, @ is spelled at, R is spelled are and 4 is spelled four. Perhaps you shouldn't write until you've learned to spell properly.

I second that.Please spend the extra seconds to use proper English and proper spelling. Text-message-speak is awkward, and makes it harder for others to understand your post as well as to search web pages. Also, non-English speakers translate pages using automatic translators and they would also appreciate correct spelling and grammar.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Pretty cold attacking someones spelling especially since English isn't everyone's native language.

All the more reason to encourage correct spelling and grammar. I can't imagine anyone learning English being taught to spell "you" as "U".

[billkath]

All the more reason to encourage correct spelling and grammar. I can't imagine anyone learning English being taught to spell "you" as "U".

But they teach people to spell "Colour" as "Color" and "Programme" as "program" all the time. Funny old thing, the English language!

[musicalbodger]

But they teach people to spell "Colour" as "Color" and "Programme" as "program" all the time. Funny old thing, the English language!

Certainly is. But I was making the point that the laziness in drobniuch's writing contradicts his pedantic attitude towards playing music and learning to play jazz. Regarding your spelling differences that is a national difference (i.e. US vs UK spelling) not laziness.

[musicalbodger]

Pretty cold attacking someones spelling especially since english isn't everyones native language. (It is mine but my spelling still sucks) Besides, many people who grew up with the web use shortcuts like u or @. The lack of punctuation bothers me but if it's too bad I just quit reading and move on.

Gramps, I would never dream of picking on anyone because they are unable to spell or haven't learned how to spell. My point was, as I said in the previous post, the laziness in drobniuch's writing contradicts his pedantic attitude towards playing music and learning to play jazz.

[Gramps]

MusicalBodger,

No big deal. I thought you made your point well then you added the language thing. I'm sure drobniuch can defend himself if he feels he needs to.

This is a great web site/forum and I'd hate for people to spend more time checking spelling than trying to convey ideas.

[billkath]

Certainly is. But I was making the point that the laziness in drobniuch's writing contradicts his pedantic attitude towards playing music and learning to play jazz. Regarding your spelling differences that is a national difference (i.e. US vs UK spelling) not laziness.

I know, bodge-just joking!

[musicalbodger]

I know, bodge-just joking!

that's cool bill, just getting a bit tetchy in my old age

[drobniuch]

My original point is that you are assuming too much and making the wrong assumptions.
1. What do you mean when you say the OP is not ready to play tunes yet? That is the first thing anyone should do when picking up an instrument for the first time. What a way to put people off music and the joys of playing. Did you learn to drive by sitting in a car in a garage and playing with the gear stick or did you get in and drive? What a destructive thing to say to anybody. Music is music and it is about performance, it is not about technical excellence. That comes with time. Anyone is ready to play tunes whenever they feel like it. There are no set rules especially if you have no intimate knowledge of the person concerned.
2. Your assumption about me is completely wrong. I have never had a teacher, I am completely self-taught and have had no experience of people saying I'm a bad player. Most people actually enjoy my groove. I am, as is everyone on this forum, an eternal student. I do, however have a great deal of experience in the arts as a sculptor (again self-taught but with work in a number of national museums & collections) and musician and I have taught a number of students in both fields. i.e. I know what I'm talking about.

Over to you.

ps U is spelled you, @ is spelled at, R is spelled are and 4 is spelled four. Perhaps you shouldn't write until you've learned to spell properly.

pps I accept that English is probably not your first language and there may be some misunderstanding regarding this, but my points still stand.

I second that.Please spend the extra seconds to use proper English and proper spelling. Text-message-speak is awkward, and makes it harder for others to understand your post as well as to search web pages. Also, non-English speakers translate pages using automatic translators and they would also appreciate correct spelling and grammar.

Ladies.. please this is a jazz forum, (here) [I/and probably others] worship people for the knowledge of science with is jazz; this posts R 4 me only waste of time.. and bring nothing

If U really don't like my ART of writing, ask Dirk Laukens to put by my posts the illiterate sighn (U can design it in MS Paint) and then when U see it, U just skip my posts..
P.S. if I breake the rulez of the JazzForum.be Dirk will kindly block my account -don't worry

[drobniuch]

p.s I still Like U, and wait 4 any good posts cheers