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This is true. There is a trope about blues being pentatonic or blues scale stuff which mostly comes from the rock dudes that came later.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I’ve heard he loved CC but didn’t know about Django, though I suppose it makes sense.
I guess my point is a guy might get the CC vocab by playing some CC and some BB vocabulary by playing BB. And being aware that neither one is exactly covering what the other one is.
And actually since you mention this, his playing is a little more Horn Blues than it is guitar blues. He has all the guitar tricks too, but he also plays in a way that can feel a bit more like a horn player.Whether or not he played "jazz licks" on a blues, he definitely played changes...he treated each chord in a blues differently.
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06-04-2024 09:20 PM
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Yeah, for a cat from Mississippi his playing sure was "uptown."
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One of BB's early influences was Lowell Fullsom. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And what you call horn blues comes from the breath of vocal music.
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Yeah. The nature of most instruments is that they had to adapt that microtonality of a voice. So instrumental vocab is a little bit its own thing. Guitar just has a very idiosyncratic thing even relative to other instruments. Originally Posted by Bop Head
EDIT: SLIDE guitar specifically though is probably the best instrumental approximation of vocal blues?
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I do not agree to disagree. I think Peter is simply wrong. Originally Posted by John A.
Two quotes:
Nat Adderley on his influences: "And then you'd get to hear T-Bone Walker and the Blues Boys."
English Wiki on Kenny Burrell: "He has cited jazz guitarists Charlie Christian, Oscar Moore, and Django Reinhardt as influences, along with blues guitarists T-Bone Walker and Muddy Waters."
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I'll add George Benson: Originally Posted by Bop Head
"I didn’t know anything. [Jack McDuff and his band] were trying to catch up with John Coltrane and Miles Davis, and I just wasn’t in that category. I had no idea what they were talking about.
Then I started hearing things. I said, oh, is this what – okay. I can do this. Then I started adding things, my own impression of what they were trying to do. That impressed Jack, because I made him sound good. If you listen to those records, I’m kicking behind Jack. [Benson sings a rhythmic pattern.] Jack loved that stuff. My solos weren’t good. My solos were mediocre, and he insisted on one thing which I hated. “Play some blues.” I said, “Does every song have to be the blues?” I said, “Why does every song got to be the blues? What happened to all the pretty music?” He said, “George” – he said, “Blues is accepted everywhere in the world. You could be in China
and play the blues, and they’ll like it.” I found out later he was right. I said, “I don’t want to play blues all . . .” – he said, “Oscar Peterson plays blues in everything. Everything he plays is bluesy.” I started listening. I said, damn if he ain’t right. Excuse my language. He’s right. So I started listening to Jack. Then he would tell me things like – he would say – he said, “George, first of all, you falling into the bag. You get into the groove. Get with it, rhythm. Then you show some technique. Play some hot licks every now and then. Let them know you can play.” He said, “And then play some blues. Play some blues.”
And you know, he was telling me the right thing. I started paying attention to that. I noticed that when I played the blues, I got a response, right in the middle of the song. [Benson sings a blues lick.] People go, “Yeah, yeah!” So I started playing a lot of them [Benson sings another blues lick.] They go, “Ah, yeah!” Reluctantly so. I wasn’t playing like Hank Garland."
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okay dude come on. Originally Posted by Bop Head
You’re trying to say that jazz guitarists are influenced by blues guitarists and vice versa, yes?
This is obviously true and I literally said that. Blues is an essential part of playing jazz.
And lest anyone @ me again — a jazz guitarist who doesn’t listen to blues music will sound super boring and not really sound like they’re playing jazz.
But what I said was that it’s useful for the OP to distinguish idiomatic blues language from blues as a form in jazz, i.e. the 12-bar blues. If im going to be blunt here. A musician who conflates the two — i.e. drops a bunch of blues riffs in every time someone calls a blues form, and just run changes without playing any blues vocab on Tin Pan Alley tunes — is going to sound contrived and inauthentic.
Blues guitarists are an excellent way to get idiomatic jazz language, but to quote the original question:
This isn’t going to come from BB King. He said he’s working on Bird tunes, said he listens to jazz daily, and said that he wanted “jazz (and jazz-blues)” vocabulary. It’s possible I misconstrued the guys emphasis, but it sounds like he’s looking to play jazz. BB King is one of the great guitarists of all time, but he isn’t a jazz guitarist.I listen to jazz daily, and so I have a number of lines that I've transcribed, and lots that are 'on the list', but what I'm looking for is a book or resource that can show me some Jazz (and Jazz-Blues) vocabulary
Should he transcribe BB? Absolutely.
Will it solve this particular problem? Kind of doubt it.
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Spoon recorded with Jay McShann after Yardbird had left Hootie's big band. Originally Posted by starjasmine
Hootie's dedication to Bird:
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What I am talking about is immersing yourself to the whole of the African-American music tradition. Listen, listen, listen with your heart and soul and not analytically and it will help your jazz playing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
At the time bebop, the mother of modern jazz language, was created (which BTW was not the "revolution" every critic is talking about but a gradual development according to Dizzy Gillespie but that's another story), such strict divisions like "blues blues" and "jazz blues" simply did not exist.
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Okay. Well good, then. I think that’s excellent. Don’t think I suggested otherwise. Originally Posted by Bop Head
I would agree. Which is why I figured some clarification might be in order as to the answers people were giving the OP.At the time bebop, the mother of modern jazz language, was created, such strict divisions like "blues blues" and "jazz blues" simply did not exist.
Will this help develop some of the blues language that is ubiquitous in all jazz (Oscar Peterson starts Corcovado with a blues lick, Clifford Brown plays as many flat thirds as he does major thirds, Clark Terry developed a whole technique around vocal blues)
Or will this help a person navigate blues forms in jazz
When someone asks me how to navigate Au Privave, I’m thinking about the changes. Maybe simplifying them, maybe working on some common moves from the I to the IV chord. Etc etc. Maybe that’s my own fault.
When someone asks me how to they could sound less boring when they play some standard, maybe I’d suggest they listen to BB King.
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Maybe I should’ve just answered this post like I do every post, regardless of topic:
Learn some Grant Green
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Pamosmusic, maybe look again at what I said in my first post where I mentioned BB? I think it’s actually pretty on point to what you’re saying about addressing the OP’s “problem”.
I cited a specific solo that gives a good window into the intersection between jazz-blues and blues-blues. But I did not say BB is the be-all and end-all of jazz blues, or that the entire BB canon is on point to this “problem”. I actually suggested a bunch of other specific things from unambiguously jazz players to check out, and intended the BB reference to be one among several.
I don’t know what will help the OP jazzify his blues or bluesify his jazz. All I can do is cite some things that helped me and people I l know with that. LatR is very much one of those things. That’s just a straight up fact. But it’s not the only one. Learning to play is about trying stuff, not debating which things to try.
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Yep ... I didn't even quote your post to disagree with it. Originally Posted by John A.
I just said that the OP could clarify what he's looking for because the question was generating answers that were getting at two different things––getting around on bebop blues changes, or generating idiomatic blues vocabulary that could be applicable wherever.
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Listening a lot to traditional folk and urban blues singers definitely helped me a ton in understanding and navigating the 12 bar blues form for jazz as well (I am talking about strictly 12 bar here, not the archaic free form stuff you might find in Alan Lomax' field recordings). You have traditionally the 4 bar statement, its repetition starting on the IV chord and a 4 measure answer starting on the V. If that is really in the pocket you will struggle much less with something more complex like a "Swedish Blues" such as Blues For Alice. Based on the basic blues form being in the pocket I learned almost everything I know about chord substitution by comparing specific jazz blues changes. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Thank you for all of these replies and sorry for the confusion (however it's sparked a really interesting discussion that I've enjoyed reading).
To answer the question that started it all (and I'm paraphrasing)... Do you want to learn how to navigate a Jazz-Blues or learn vocabulary in the Blues Idiom?
I suppose eventually both, however to clarify what I'm looking for I'll go into a bit more detail.
I can play pentatonic and major scales in all positions at a decent tempo and can play arpeggios across the whole neck too. This doesn't help when it comes to solo because (to me) this isn't 'vocabulary'.
I'm focusing on Jazz-Blues tunes just now, but I'm also learning standards too. What I was hoping for was advice on what resources I can use to develop both Blues and Jazz lines/vocab (and I suppose a specific breakdown of how to do it), and how to actually incorporate this into playing over tunes. I'm not looking for a book of licks, but more a guide to how to build and play lines in the style.
I know I'd need to play different things over, say, Au Privave; Anthropology; and Autumn Leaves, but I hope this can be incorporated into some of the replies.
Hope that clarifies? and looking forward to readng the repliesLast edited by jamiehenderson1993; 06-05-2024 at 02:07 AM.
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Correct. Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
Well, as the man said, there's only 12 notes. The main instrument you have is your ear. The way to absorb a style is to listen to it all the time. That's how we learned to speak. That's how we learn anything new, by exposure and absorption in it.what resources I can use to develop both Blues and Jazz lines/vocab (and I suppose a specific breakdown of how to do it), and how to actually incorporate this into playing over tunes.
You can use any method you like to do it. Listen to recordings, look at, and play, transcriptions, do little exercises, anything you like. There's no one way and there's no magic formula. If you want to understand something you have to study it, study it, study it.
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Yes, great! Can you recommend any recordings, transcriptions, exercises (or resources) that I could start with? Originally Posted by ragman1
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No, Jamie. Do your own research, don't be lazy. If you want to do this, you'll do it. Sorry, but there's no end to asking other people to do it for you.
You've started three threads already, right? And people have answered, lots of information, suggestions, advice, books, videos, etc, on all three. And here you are asking exactly the same question again.
What are you doing with the answers already given to you?
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How about Free Jazz Guitar Lessons ... you'll find all the answers you are looking for in these lessons.... should keep you busy for months if not years...
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Thanks for this reply. I’m a bit confused though as I view this as me doing research? I'm obviously off-base with that. Originally Posted by ragman1
I am totally new to this style of playing and I’m trying to seek out people who have walked the path before who can guide me towards the best, or at least good examples of, recordings and resources that can be used to develop an understanding of the style.
I am trying to gather knowledge of what places I can reference as part of the learning process. I’m still going to have to put the hours in to get the vocabulary under my fingers so I can actually perform it. What I’m looking for is advice from more experienced players who have done the work before who can help me to avoid wasting time on things that aren’t useful, and direct me towards the most rewarding fruit.
All of the information posted across my posts has been hugely useful, and I’m going to need time to digest it. My previous comment was a reaction to you suggesting that you had a good knowledge of this style, and have an awareness of where a beginner could start. Apologies.
To answer your question:
From this post on soloing:
The advice really seems to be to continue to listen to as wide a variety of music in this style as I can so I’ve added all the songs that people have suggested to a playlist & I’ve begun listening to this,
I’ve started learning Parker’s solo on Now’s the Time and Cannonball’s solo on Au Privave,
I’m going to join the weekly Jazz Blues thread the Bobby Timmons suggested
From the post on comping:
I’ve transcribed one of my favourite players comping over a few choruses of a blues and will try to practise that transcription as well as to add my own embellishments over it.
I’ve also found some of the transcriptions and books suggested and I’m going to begin learning some more voicings and rhythms and try to incorporate this.
And from the Different “Ways” of learning a Standard I’m going to:
Take into different keys
Begin to embellish the melody
Restrict myself to certain fret ranges
Play Melody and Bass (Root of Chord)
Work up a Chord Melody
Use Guide Tones (3rds and 7ths)
Thanks
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*eyeroll* Originally Posted by ragman1
Grant Green is where it’s at. He has a later period where he’s playing a bit more of a funk thing (which is also awesome) but any of his earlier stuff fits the bill.Yes, great! Can you recommend any recordings, transcriptions, exercises (or resources) that I could start with?
And check out that Randy Vincent book for real. There’s a whole section on using blues melodies to start improvising. Guitarists Introduction to Jazz.
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And that clarification is very useful.
If this is the goal:
Then now — as a mea culpa — all this would, in fact, be very good stuff (in addition to Grant Green).What I was hoping for was advice on what resources I can use to develop both Blues and Jazz lines/vocab (and I suppose a specific breakdown of how to do it), and how to actually incorporate this into playing over tunes.
What I was hoping for was advice on what resources I can use to develop both Blues and Jazz lines/vocab (and I suppose a specific breakdown of how to do it), and how to actually incorporate this into playing over tunes.
Originally Posted by John A.
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Research is just my word for work put in to find out what you need to answer your questions. Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
You say you're learning the Charlie Parker solo. Why?
Bear in mind it's not a question of imitation, it's a question of seeing what the player is doing, where he breaks up the notes, where he plays a longer connecting line, what scale he's using, and so on. You have to get the principle of what's going on, then it's yours to do with as you please. That's far more important than just copying a solo.
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There's a Jamie Aebersold book/record called "Nothin' But Blues" that is, um, nothing but blues. The book itself has a lot of decent information: chord voicings, bass line construction, typical licks, scales, different types of blues forms, etc. along with text descriptions of what's going on.
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This is also a thing. I can’t vouch for it but a friend uses it with some students and likes it.
Three levels of “blues” ii-V-I licks.
Sick Licks
Big caution on stuff like this is that it won’t notate articulation and it wouldn’t matter if it did. So it’s not a substitute for burying yourself in Grant Green and Clark Terry.
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