Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

[todonne3]

So I am a rock/blues/pop player who is trying to break into the world of jazz. While working on some tunes I noticed that my playing sounded kinda lame while I was trying to play the changes. My question is: How often and under what circumstances do you generally try to play the changes vs. just playing over the key center? I realize I will probably get a lot of answers like "it's up to the artistic discretion of the player". I know that, but I am curious if there are any specific tips anyone can offer. Thanks

[pamosmusic]

So I am a rock/blues/pop player who is trying to break into the world of jazz. While working on some tunes I noticed that my playing sounded kinda lame while I was trying to play the changes. My question is: How often and under what circumstances do you generally try to play the changes vs. just playing over the key center? I realize I will probably get a lot of answers like "it's up to the artistic discretion of the player". I know that, but I am curious if there are any specific tips anyone can offer. Thanks

Its up to the artistic discretion of the player.

Just kidding (I mean not really kidding, but you know).

So this is an interesting question. I would start by saying that I think playing the changes pretty straight forwardly and explicitly is a good thing to be able to do straight up. Triads are a great place to start with that.

With that said, this is a hard question to answer. I think more often players are “chunking” chord changes, rather than just generalizing to a key center. Like Autumn Leaves (in Bb) might become:

F7 ——— Bb ———
D7 ——— Gm ———

A soloist can really effectively outline the harmonic of the tune with those simpler changes, and it creates more space down the line for embellishing them creatively.

Another complicating factor is that, if you’re looking at a transcription, a lot of stuff that might look like general scale stuff might actually be outlining changes pretty effectively because of its rhythmic placement.

A notable exception would be blues vocabulary. So a player might play some wicked Bb blues stuff over the first four bars of Autumn Leaves without much attention at all to the chord changes themselves.

Another would be motivic development — a player might ditch the changes for a moment to get a nice idea off the ground (e.g. Sonny Rollins on St Thomas).

So if I’m boiling it down to advice, I would say that being able to outline the chords in their basic triad form is super important and is sort of prerequisite for a lot of the other stuff. And having some blues vocabulary together too.

[Bobby Timmons]

It's my firm opinion that you have to be able to outline the changes to play jazz well and you can't only play the key center.

Although.. it's good to play to the key center to be able fall back on, for resolutions, for sections, or for riffs like blues riffs based on the 1 regardless of what changes are passing.

[pauln]

Just to check the terminology, are these agreed, or are there other views?

Triads - play notes of the chord tones of the chords
Extensions - play also the extensions' harmonies
Chord Scale - play notes of the multiple scales of the chord
Passing chords - play also the notes/scales of passing chords
Key Center - play notes of the scale of the key for which a series of chords are diatonic (harmonized)

Does "changes" broadly include all the above except key center?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

“Playing the changes” is much more than sticking to the original chords. It can mean something as simple as running the chords in scales or arpeggiated triads. But it’s really a broad approach to improvisation that encompasses many creative ways to develop meaningful musical structures compatible with the changes and the rhythm of the piece.

You can alter and embellish the melody line but leave it sufficiently intact to recognize, or you can compose a new melodic line that weaves through the changes. You can play simple notes and phrases that are sonically compatible with the changes and highlight or interact with the rhythmic patterns of the piece. You can reharmonize or play only extensions of the changes.

None of this is mutually exclusive with “playing over the key center”, which taken literally means focusing on the tonic chord of a song or section. Most scales have at least 2 notes in common with most other scales - so you can play over the key center and the changes at the same time.

The only limits are those of your imagination.

[rpjazzguitar]

A good player can make key center stuff sound great.

A good player outlining the changes may sound better, or jazzier, or something, by adding harmonic interest.

A lot of players add additional changes or make substitute changes and sound great playing over those.

[Mick-7]

While working on some tunes I noticed that my playing sounded kinda lame while I was trying to play the changes.

By "lame" I'm guessing you mean it sounds like you're running scales or playing an exercise, aimless sounding? A cure for that (or start towards a cure) is to take a motif/lick and alter it to fit the chords. If you want to be able to create and develop melodic ideas, which is what improvising is all about, you need to practice doing that. The attached exercise is one way to approach it. It's based on Keith Jarrett's process of melodic development, I had posted it in another thread.

[equenda]

Hi.
I am convinced that the way to create a good improvisation is to play over the chord changes. For many years I played on tonal centers and in any case the result was DIFFERENT from what I heard on the records of my favorite Musicians: Tal Farlow, Pat Martino, Jimmy Raney, Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Lenny Breau, Bird, Dexter, Sonny Rollins, Sonny Stitt, Oscar Peterson, Lennie Tristano....
Maybe it's possible to get a good improvisation with just one scale on a modal tune. But on a standard song we all know that the dominant chord is DIFFERENT from the minor chord and even the major chord, so it is essential to play SOMETHING DIFFERENT over the dominant chord. Otherwise you will not get TENSION AND RESOLUTION.



Playing on chord changes creating tension and resolution is not easy and I even wrote a book focused on this aspect. Obviously it is possible to play everything you want because Jazz allows total freedom. But playing on the tonal centers produces music that I don't like.

Ettore

MELODIC IMPROVISATION FOR JAZZ GUITAR

[GuyBoden]

Sculpturing an artistic melodic line that weaves in and out of the changes seamlessly is how the the greats improvise.

But, I think for mediocre mortals, like myself, it's better to try to play mostly chord tones in an improvisation, to outline the changes.

[garybaldy]

By "lame" I'm guessing you mean it sounds like you're running scales or playing an exercise, aimless sounding? A cure for that (or start towards a cure) is to take a motif/lick and alter it to fit the chords. If you want to be able to create and develop melodic ideas, which is what improvising is all about, you need to practice doing that. The attached exercise is one way to approach it. It's based on Keith Jarrett's process of melodic development, I had posted it in another thread.

I love good practical examples!

[RobSilver7]

Strong melodies describe chord changes. So playing over “key centers” as opposed to chord changes could cause melodies to sound vague to the listener. Sometimes this is a desired effect to make the melody sound ambiguous.

Of course, strong melodies don’t have to describe the chord changes on the page — substitute chords are up to the discretion of the improviser. Even when playing over a modal tune, it’s hard not to imply some chord changes underlying the musical logic of whatever melodic line you are playing.

[ragman1]

Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

Both, but mostly the changes. Which includes substitutions.

[pamosmusic]

Here’s a fun question — can you tell the chord changes of a tune based on looking at a transcription?

[John A.]

I think I’d need to hear the OP playing his notion of “playing the changes” and “playing the the key center” over a specific tune or two before being able to offer any tips.
IME, “should I do this pitch collection thing or that one in order to sound more like jazz?” is beside the point because note choices is not what’s wrong with the playing. It’s usually time, rhythm, phrasing, overall chops, and lack of a sense of melodic development. So let’s hear the OP solo over a tune first.

[pamosmusic]

IME, “should I do this pitch collection thing or that one in order to sound more like jazz?” is beside the point because note choices is not what’s wrong with the playing. It’s usually time, rhythm, phrasing, overall chops, and lack of a sense of melodic development

Okay I still think it’s an interesting question, but yeah — rhythmrhythmrhythm

[todonne3]

Thanks to all! This is all great advice. I'll try to work on a playing example that I can post

[JazzPadd]

Playing jazz, from where I’m sitting, is for fun. And I have the most fun weaving spontaneous pathways through the changes. If I don’t know the changes, or get lost, key center is a fallback option but it’s not as much fun.

[John A.]

Okay I still think it’s an interesting question, but yeah — rhythmrhythmrhythm

Interesting in the sense of forcing one to think about what playing the changes and playing key centers actually mean, sure. In the long run that can help you understand music and expand your palette. But that’s doesn’t really get you much of an answer to “why do I sound bad and how can I sound better now?”

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

But that’s doesn’t really get you much of an answer to “why do I sound bad and how can I sound better now?”

For many, the answer is because they’re trying to memorize and apply arbitrary rules and schools, when they should be freeing their minds to play what they hear inside and developing the chops to do so. Soloing by formula and rule is like kissing through a screen door.

[RobSilver7]

For many, the answer is because they’re trying to memorize and apply arbitrary rules and schools, when they should be freeing their minds to play what they hear inside and developing the chops to do so.

Right. In the end you have to develop musical ideas and play them by ear.

[pamosmusic]

Interesting in the sense of forcing one to think about what playing the changes and playing key centers actually mean, sure. In the long run that can help you understand music and expand your palette. But that’s doesn’t really get you much of an answer to “why do I sound bad and how can I sound better now?”

I don’t know. I mean, I do love a philosophical cul de sac, and I’m certainly not disagreeing with you about rhythm—that’s A no. 1. But when you think about melodic development, what pitches you’re using and how those pitches fit against the accompaniment would be a significant part.

And the more interesting one you mentioned was phrasing — one aspect of phrasing that I think is really important for jazz is what you might call Line Shape. I really think jazz—or at least bebop-adjacent jazz (which is most of it)—has a kind of distinctive shape. Sort of jagged, unpredictable, doubles back on itself, etc. I think a lot of the time when a phrase doesn’t sound like “jazz” that’s actually a big part of it. And I think straightforward “key center” playing probably doesn’t lend itself to those kinds of shapes, though the question of what “hitting the changes means” is a little bit of a red herring too.

[mr. beaumont]

You can play key center AND still play changes...once you get decent at it.

Somebody told me years ago (and I've adopted it as my kind of mantra) you basically want to get to a point where you can nail every single change...and then...don't do that.

For a while now I've tried seeing almost everything as I and V...and if there's something that I can't think of that way, that chord gets extra special attention.

But I really think when starting out trying to nail every change is where it's at, with the understanding that great players aren't always doing that...but they sure as hell COULD.

[AllanAllen]

I think key center playing is modal jazz stuff reverse applied to swing and bebop. You can get through a solo with it, but it won't sound um... period authentic, might be the right phrase.

You're going to make things a lot harder by not learning the triad stuff Peter is talking about. Then you'll transcribe some stuff one day and be like "this is just triads and little embellishments, WTF? Why does it sound so good?"

[Reg]

Yea... the jarrett reference from Mick-7 is great..

But eventually you need it all... or better put. The more you understand, the better your able to play what you want or hear.

Playing the changes is just a References for understanding what the Changes are and what they imply when developing solos etc.

Playing Key Centers usually implies Functional or standard harmonic movements... and understandings of what those harmonic movements imply. How notes react to other notes and which notes are in control of the movement. (very simple versions)

Just like using triads is generally more useful than using Root notes, and using 7th chords is more useful than triads etc... and eventually using Chord patterns can be more useful than single chords.

The usefulness is being able have more choices of musical organizations from which to develop the improv and where the tune can go musically.

Melodies create guidelines for expanding the harmony. But there are always more choices... or References for developing improv.. And eventually you need to be able to also hear what other players are using etc...

That's why it will help one to be able to hear and play better by making ... analysis of tunes. Which just become plug and play References for playing tunes.

And of course... it's not just playing the changes.... it's also understanding what the changes imply, kind of like the Jarrett Exercises ... "the thinking behind the notes".

It's just not that easy to understand what your not aware of.

Analyses implies using Musical References for defining what the Form, notes and chords are and guidelines for Developing them... which is what playing in a Jazz style is.

[pamosmusic]

You can play key center AND still play changes...once you get decent at it.

….

For a while now I've tried seeing almost everything as I and V...and if there's something that I can't think of that way, that chord gets extra special attention.

Yeah this is what I mean when I say it can be tricky in a vacuum to know if someone is playing “a key center” because what looks like a scale run might be just a little scale run, or it might be carefully placed to outline a chord.

I think key center playing is modal jazz stuff reverse applied to swing and bebop. You can get through a solo with it, but it won't sound um... period authentic, might be the right phrase.

And this is also really interesting. I’ve heard you say that you generalize a lot. Like I believe it was that, to you, the A section of A Train is just “C”.

I think I know what you mean, but I’d be interested to hear what the difference is or how your playing looks different than just “key center” playing when you conceptualize it this way.

see voo play