How do you understand the 5th and 6th bars of rhythm changes?

[Peng1026]

Hi folks, I'm working on rhythm changes recently. How do you understand the 5th and 6th bars?

Some article says it's a modal interchange and the Bb7 and Ebm7 come from the Bb Mixolydian and Bb minor scale, which i don't quite understand, I mean what's the point of thinking it that way? And some say they see the first three chords as the 251 of Eb major, which makes more sense to me.

Since there are several variants for the two bars, i just want to know how you think of them and what's your usual approach to them.
Many thanks!

[pamosmusic]

The Barry Harris move is I think the easiest to wrap my head around.

Bb7 for one bar and then Eb7 for the next.

[Jimmy blue note]

I'm not sure if I'm working with the same changes you are but the piece is primarily centred around one tonal area using secondary dominants to take a sort of "grand tour" of that key. The piece has a feeling of constant movement because, while it has a coincidence of diatonic chords, they never really settle on the actual diatonic qualities but use secondary dominants to move forward to the next area of expectation.
Measures 5 and 6 set up the expectation of the IV chord with its own secondary dominant (looks like a I7 chord) and instead of fulfilling that expectation, that IVMaj7 chord is actually the start of a dominant progression that leads us to the V7 of the key, and brings us home.

Does that make sense? It's a study in dominant 7 movement.

That's the way I hear it and that's how I play it.

[mr. beaumont]

A section of RC? Blues or all I and V. No need to overcomplicate it, it's going by too fast.

[pamosmusic]

A section of RC? Blues or all I and V. No need to overcomplicate it, it's going by too fast.

Yeah if there’s two chords in a bar, I’m not playing two chords in a bar

[AllanAllen]

RC is I vi ii V, there ain't no modes here. That's making it too hard.

Major 7 if you want a swing sound, Dom 7 if you want it more modern, better yet to use both and your ear to see what fits where. Play the changes on the bridge, badda bing badda boom, you're a jazz cat.

[ragman1]

Since there are several variants for the two bars

That's the problem there. Choice equals confusion. Thing is, there are not only variants for those two bars but variants for the whole thing. I can think of about seven different ones off the top of my head.

So we need to see the complete form you're using to know what would fit right with the rest of it. Can you let us see that?

[pamosmusic]

So we need to see the complete form you're using to know what would fit right with the rest of it. Can you let us see that?

Nahhhhh. Like with a blues, the rhythm changes variants are all versions of the same basic motion. Not really necessary.

Bb for the first four, alternating with the F7 chord. Lands on Bb7 on bar five, then bar six moves you to the turnaround in bars seven and eight. There will just be flavors of that.

The only bar that really has any real variation is bar 6 ...

Eb7
Eb6 - Ebm6
Ebm7 - Ab7
Eb6 - Eo7

They're all there to get you to either Bb or Dm7 for the turnaround

[deacon Mark]

What changes are you using there are a number of possibilities?

I like
/Bbmaj7 gmin7 / cmin7 f7/ Bbmaj7 gmin7/ dmin7 Dbdim /cmin7 f7 /Bbmaj7 Bb7 / Ebmaj7 Ebmin7/ Bbmaj7 Cmin7 F7 /

[pamosmusic]

Point is, those 1½ bar of the A section a short key change to the IV whatever key the song is in.
….
What you want to do is to make an approach to bar 7.

Thats the rub. I think trying to make a key change or think about it as a modulation or something misses that second point you made. We’re trying to do a little loop-the-loop to get back to Bb and Bobs your uncle.

[Average Joe]

Thats the rub. I think trying to make a key change or think about it as a modulation or something misses that second point you made. We’re trying to do a little loop-the-loop to get back to Bb and Bobs your uncle.

I really should proof read before submitting a post.

I don't disagree. But I gather that the OP is in the process of mastering the form, and if that is the case I think it can be benificial to know that this loop-the-loop is a key change. later on, when it's internalized, what it is is less important.

[pamosmusic]

I really should proof read before submitting a post.

I don't disagree. But I gather that the OP is in the process of mastering the form, and if that is the case I think it can be benificial to know that this loop-the-loop is a key change. later one, when it's internalized, what it is is less important.

I think actually simplifying the chord changes to their essence is a little more important. The Barry Harris changes are pretty useful in that respect. If someone is working out the form, I think generally playing two chords per bar at an up tempo is a little harder than stripping the thing down to one chord per bar.

Ill take bar six rhythm changes for two hundred.

Eb7
Eb - Eo
Eb - Ebm
Ebm - Ab7

What are Ways to get back to Bb, Alex.

Point being, if they’re all serving the same purpose, I’d rather pick the simplest one and stick to it, rather than get into the weeds about which one he’s looking at on the page, I guess.

[ragman1]

I gather that the OP is in the process of mastering the form.

But we need to know which form, not just assume we know. Also how fast he's doing it, and so on.

[pamosmusic]

But we need to know which form, not just assume we know. Also how fast he's doing it, and so on.

What I’m saying … it’s the same form

[rpjazzguitar]

Hi folks, I'm working on rhythm changes recently. How do you understand the 5th and 6th bars?

Some article says it's a modal interchange and the Bb7 and Ebm7 come from the Bb Mixolydian and Bb minor scale, which i don't quite understand, I mean what's the point of thinking it that way? And some say they see the first three chords as the 251 of Eb major, which makes more sense to me.

Since there are several variants for the two bars, i just want to know how you think of them and what's your usual approach to them.
Many thanks!

I think I understand what you're asking, but it would help to write out the exact changes you're considering, because the tune is played in different ways.

If you're looking at Bb7 / Eb(major something) Ebm7, then ...

If there's an advantage to thinking about modal interchange, it continues to elude me. Others may jump in to suggest it's the greatest thing ever.

To me it's a one way street going the wrong way. Someone finds something that sounds good and explains it as a modal interchange. Fine.

But, if you try to go in the other direction -- meaning thinking about modal interchange as a way of finding something that sounds good, be prepared to discard a lot of possibilities.

Modal interchange seems to be a way of explaining something after it's successful. Theorists will probably flame away. It's possible, of course, that I need to learn something.

Back to the music. Bb Bb7 Eb Ebm is a very common progression you see in a lot of tunes. I usually play through it by ear and I have no idea what I'm doing, in terms of theory.

Now that I focus on it, I can see a brief transition to the key of Ebmaj. But maybe it would be easier to think: you start in Bb (all white keys except Bb and Eb) and then when the Bb7 comes up you lower the A to Ab. Now you've got all white keys except Bb Eb and Ab. Those are the notes in Bb mixolydian (same as Ebmajor).

Then, when you get to the Ebm, you lower the G to a Gb. Now you've got all white keys except Bb Eb Ab Gb. Those are the notes in Ebmelmin.

Or, maybe you're not using the Ebm and you have an Eb7 in bar 6 instead. In that case, you'd have all white keys except Bb Eb Ab and Db. Also known as Eb mixolydian (same as Abmajor).

Did you just "borrow via modal interchange"? Honestly, I don't know. Maybe? If so, was it helpful to think about it that way?

Maybe it's better to think, "I'm in Bb for 4 bars and part of the 5th. Then I have to adjust one note for the Bb7 and Eb. After that, I have to adjust one more note for the Ebm. Then I go back to Bb."

That turns out to be the same notes as thinking Bb Ionian, Bb mixolydian, Eb Ionian, Eb melmin and Bb Ionian. Or so I think. Maybe somebody will chime in with a more theoretically justified response.

This approach does require that you know the notes in the chords and scales you use. Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

[pamosmusic]

What I’m saying … it’s the same form

To elaborate … he’s asking how to conceptualize or handle that section of the tune. It doesn’t matter what chords go there in whichever variation, because it’s “we’re getting back to One.”

[ragman1]

What I’m saying … it’s the same form

Same form but multiple variations. It's the variations that alter the tone of the piece.

[Peng1026]

I think I understand what you're asking, but it would help to write out the exact changes you're considering, because the tune is played in different ways.

If you're looking at Bb7 / Eb(major something) Ebm7, then ...

If there's an advantage to thinking about modal interchange, it continues to elude me. Others may jump in to suggest it's the greatest thing ever.

To me it's a one way street going the wrong way. Someone finds something that sounds good and explains it as a modal interchange. Fine.

But, if you try to go in the other direction -- meaning thinking about modal interchange as a way of finding something that sounds good, be prepared to discard a lot of possibilities.

Modal interchange seems to be a way of explaining something after it's successful. Theorists will probably flame away. It's possible, of course, that I need to learn something.

Back to the music. Bb Bb7 Eb Ebm is a very common progression you see in a lot of tunes. I usually play through it by ear and I have no idea what I'm doing, in terms of theory.

Now that I focus on it, I can see a brief transition to the key of Ebmaj. But maybe it would be easier to think: you start in Bb (all white keys except Bb and Eb) and then when the Bb7 comes up you lower the A to Ab. Now you've got all white keys except Bb Eb and Ab. Those are the notes in Bb mixolydian (same as Ebmajor).

Then, when you get to the Ebm, you lower the G to a Gb. Now you've got all white keys except Bb Eb Ab Gb. Those are the notes in Ebmelmin.

Or, maybe you're not using the Ebm and you have an Eb7 in bar 6 instead. In that case, you'd have all white keys except Bb Eb Ab and Db. Also known as Eb mixolydian (same as Abmajor).

Did you just "borrow via modal interchange"? Honestly, I don't know. Maybe? If so, was it helpful to think about it that way?

Maybe it's better to think, "I'm in Bb for 4 bars and part of the 5th. Then I have to adjust one note for the Bb7 and Eb. After that, I have to adjust one more note for the Ebm. Then I go back to Bb."

That turns out to be the same notes as thinking Bb Ionian, Bb mixolydian, Eb Ionian, Eb melmin and Bb Ionian. Or so I think. Maybe somebody will chime in with a more theoretically justified response.

This approach does require that you know the notes in the chords and scales you use. Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

Hi, thanks for the reply, I think basically in the same way as you. I found it interesting that you wrote:"Now you've got all white keys except Bb Eb Ab Gb". You think in a piano way of the notes? Could you explain more of this? Thanks!

[Peng1026]

Hi, I'm the OP. Sorry for the confusion of what I was asking...

My question was not really about a specific variant of the 2 bars, it was just about how do you usually play them.

You could "play the changes" , but you don't always do that right ? (regarding that you don't play just one chorus of RC ) I wanted to know different ways of thinking when you choose not to play the every lead notes of the chords to outline the changes.

On the other hand I think, the very variant you usually play is also your way of understanding the structure of RC. Therefore you are also welcome to tell which variant you play mostly, and why it's your favorite variant.


Your answers are all right to me, many many thanks to you all!

[Peng1026]

I'm not sure if I'm working with the same changes you are but the piece is primarily centred around one tonal area using secondary dominants to take a sort of "grand tour" of that key. The piece has a feeling of constant movement because, while it has a coincidence of diatonic chords, they never really settle on the actual diatonic qualities but use secondary dominants to move forward to the next area of expectation.
Measures 5 and 6 set up the expectation of the IV chord with its own secondary dominant (looks like a I7 chord) and instead of fulfilling that expectation, that IVMaj7 chord is actually the start of a dominant progression that leads us to the V7 of the key, and brings us home.

Does that make sense? It's a study in dominant 7 movement.

That's the way I hear it and that's how I play it.

Thanks for the reply, could explain a little more of why " that IVMaj7 chord is actually the start of a dominant progression that leads us to the V7 of the key, and brings us home." ?

You see the IVmaj7 als the upper structure of a ii-9 and the chord leads to the V7, like a I IV V blues to some extend?

[Jimmy blue note]

Thanks for the reply, could explain a little more of why " that IVMaj7 chord is actually the start of a dominant progression that leads us to the V7 of the key, and brings us home." ?

You see the IVmaj7 als the upper structure of a ii-9 and the chord leads to the V7, like a I IV V blues to some extend?

Our ear is comfortable with diatonic movement. It likes the change of moods that the chords offer. In this tune, that expectation and comfort is given some extra "oomph" by using dominant chords that push us to the next chord where expectation is surprised by another dominant chord.
The IV chord (usually a major) is one of the three major tonalities so it's a strong point of rest and destination, and the play between the IV, V and I is a pretty strong triumverate of tonality.
II and IV are considered the subdominant chords, largely interchangable to the ear, so IV V I is a variation of II V I. Guiding the ear to the IV is a nice way of setting up a return to home, which is what is one way of taking us home. IV7 to V7 works nicely too because a dominant can have a nice movement up a whole step (I won't get into why, unless you want to know, but it's a nice sound that works).
I can explain the theory, but play it. Your ear will tell you it's good.
Get it in your ear, get it in your fingers, let your ear take you into new situations through sound... get the reasons later.
Have fun!

[ragman1]

My question was not really about a specific variant of the 2 bars, it was just about how do you usually play them

It depends what they are, Peng!

On the other hand I think, the very variant you usually play is also your way of understanding the structure of RC.

Not really. The version we use is usually one already decided on by pro players. And, as I was saying to Peter, there are quite a few of them, and in different keys.

For example, there's the 'standard' version Bb Gm | Cm F7. I could start listing all the different ways of doing it but it would go right down the page. But it's also not just bars 5 and 6, it's also about the first four bars because those bars are usually played 'in one' i.e. a complete phrase. Then what happens in bars 5 and 6 depends.

I'm sorry if this throws a spanner in the works but it's true. May I seriously suggest something? Go on to YouTube and look at notated transcriptions of various famous players, ones with the chord symbols on them.

Google 'I Got Rhythm transcription'. Not just guitar (there are very few), but the other instruments. You'll see how much they vary. So you can't just say 'play it this way', it depends on the whole structure.

That's why I'm asking you which version (the whole thing) you're using. It matters.

[pamosmusic]

Okay for real …

This is Sonny on Oleo. Look at what he plays over that bar. They notate an Ebm sometimes and an Edim sometimes. What he actually plays .. sometimes an Edim over Edim, sometimes an Ebm over Edim, sometimes an Ebm over Ebm. These things are interchangeable in practice. Rhythm changes works like a blues. Guys aren’t sitting down and talking about the two beats on m6 and then sticking it to it like gospel. Everyone knows the *form* and the purpose of those measures and does their thing. Does it match every time? Absolutely not, but the direction and purpose matches. This is how this sort of thing works. Understand the simple underlying structure and learn to elaborate from there. Don’t get hung up on what the lead sheet says because the lead sheet is probably wrong, and if it’s right, the soloists are probably not adhering to it anyway.



And for the record, I opened my Sonny Rollins omnibook at random. It’s this way on all the rhythm changes tunes and probably is for just about everyone who regularly plays rhythm changes.

[pamosmusic]

Peng is not giving us his version. I don't think he's got one. So he's asking us what to play over a non-existent chord progression...

Don't forget the standard version is Bb Gm | Cm F7 but Barry Harris says Bb7 | Eb7. Terrific :-)

Once more for the people in the back:

The variation doesn’t really matter.

and … the Barry version:

Bb - F7 - Bb - F7
Bb7 - Eb7 - Bb - F7

[pamosmusic]

A quality edit, Ragman