Piano comping using 5 voices INSTEAD of chords

[alez]

I'm not a pianist at all (or much of a trumpeter), but I've recently recorded this piano comping over a previous recording I had done on cornet:

https://mega.nz/file/aBhXRJLC#SpTcUx...pFDgNZ9qJ_Pxv0
(click opens new tab for watching and / or downloading).

It's very static because of my total lack of skill, but it's served the purpose, namely to check how a recent idea I've had actually sounds like.

This idea is basically to translate to the piano the way I've been studying harmony on the trumpet for quite a while, using my own drills and so on. I've described it on this 8-page PDF:

https://mega.nz/file/aRZBWaSY#50H2ps...ChBlgj6UwSFWmE
(click opens new tab for reading and / or downloading).

The point is that jazz harmony is taught in a way that I find somewhat too chord-centric, like it's all about chords as the fundamental entities without which jazz can't exist and anything jazz stems from thinking everything in terms of chords and how they move.

Please say things to me

[Lionelsax]

Hi !

Congratulations if you want to study the piano.
I recently sold my cheap digital piano and bought a good keyboard, a Studiologic Numa Compact X SE.
So it's a keyboard made mostly for electric pianos and organ sounds (acoustic pianos can be great, less than Roland or Yamaha but better than Korg).
I play the piano the way I can, I play and sing pop and jazz songs mostly.

For jazz comping you can start with jazz voicings on the right hand (A and B form).

You can Google them, there are well known voicings.

Your left hand can play the roots or a walking bass.

I've been doing it for years, it works a time but it becomes annoying.

Now I'm into two-handed voicings when there is already a bass.

Two notes per hand.

Major and minor : 3 7 9 5 or 7 3 5 9
Dominant : 3 7 9 13 or 7 3 13 9
Altered : 3 7 #9 #5 or 7 3 #5 #9
Half-diminished : b3 7 R b5 or 7 b3 b5 R

Of course you can spread them more or play them quartal but the goal is to emulate guitar voicings.

This is what I used to play... Bass and voicings with the keyboard I sold.

Don't forget to connect the chords (voice leading) !

[dconeill]

... This idea is basically to translate to the piano the way I've been studying harmony on the trumpet for quite a while, using my own drills and so on. I've described it on this 8-page PDF:

https://mega.nz/file/aRZBWaSY#50H2ps8LDCYnFb6K9WdVZffbPUkSYChBlgj6UwSFW mE
(click opens new tab for reading and / or downloading).

The point is that jazz harmony is taught in a way that I find somewhat too chord-centric, like it's all about chords as the fundamental entities without which jazz can't exist and anything jazz stems from thinking everything in terms of chords and how they move.

Please say things to me

The PDF document you referenced is not available at the hyperlink you provided.

As far as chords go, a chord is nothing more than several pitches played at once. Various combinations of pitches define, more-or-less precisely, which scale is in use and where in the scale you happen to be. For example, the only place the pitch combination 1 3 5 b7 (where 1 is the root of the chord, 3 is a major 3rd above the root, 5 is a perfect 5th above the root, and b7 is a minor 7th above the root) appears in the major scale is on the fifth scale degree - in the key of C Major, that chord is G B D F.

A chord at any point in a piece of music, among other things, tells you what pitches will work at that point in the piece. It's a shorthand way of expressing the harmony in effect at that moment. And it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

But without being able to see your PDF document I don't know what you're thinking.

[Lionelsax]

This is what I was talking about, difficult to write or read but easy to play...

[Mick-7]

This is what I was talking about, difficult to write or read but easy to play...

Those are all conventional chord voicings in your sheet - Dm9, G13, Cmaj9, etc. - but guitarists can't always include all the chord tones (usually can't). What is Alez'es question?

[Lionelsax]

Those are all conventional chord voicings in your sheet - Dm9, G13, Cmaj9, etc. - but guitarists can't always include all the chord tones (usually can't). What is Alez'es question?

He wants to learn jazz comping on piano.
Guitarist can't do it very well but they can emulate two-handed voicings even if I think two-handed voicings emulate guitar voicings (more effective than you can expect).
That was my answer to his question.
What I wrote is what everyone should know on keyboard.
I never name the extensions when I name a chord, the chord progression suggests them without naming them.

[Mick-7]

The point is that jazz harmony is taught in a way that I find somewhat too chord-centric, like it's all about chords as the fundamental entities without which jazz can't exist and anything jazz stems from thinking everything in terms of chords and how they move.

There are many jazz harmony books written for pianists and transcriptions of jazz piano players you could study.

For example:

[Lionelsax]

There are many jazz harmony books written for pianists and transcriptions of jazz piano players you could study.

For example:

I don't think it can help because it's for pianists, he needs basics, the way I learnt is easier and efficient, in less than a month he will be able to play basic efficient jazz comping on most of classic standards.
If it works for a dumb like me, it will work for everyone.

[Maroonblazer]

The point is that jazz harmony is taught in a way that I find somewhat too chord-centric, like it's all about chords as the fundamental entities without which jazz can't exist and anything jazz stems from thinking everything in terms of chords and how they move.

That's a bit like saying "I find that baking is taught in a way that's too ingredient-centric. Like it's all about the flour and eggs and other ingredients as fundamental entities..."

Chord changes are what people respond to when deciding whether they like a piece of music. This is true even when listening to just a single voice play a solo line, as the harmony is either implied (if the line is composed well) or inferred by the listener (in all other cases).

[2bornot2bop]

It’s very simple. If you desire to study piano, at minimum, begin with a piano book that covers all the basics.

I played trumpet and flugelhorn for 20 years. But my heart was always with piano, even though I never had the opportunity to play. So at 33, I purchased my first grand piano. That was 33 years ago. It’s been the most rewarding musical investment I’ve ever made.

My recommendation? Begin with this book. It’s well written, and designed to get anyone studying and playing solo jazz piano. It’s available on Amazon. And if you’ve any questions you’re more than welcome to PM me.

[alez]

Many thanks, all.

The PDF document you referenced is not available at the hyperlink you provided.

As far as chords go, a chord is nothing more than several pitches played at once. Various combinations of pitches define, more-or-less precisely, which scale is in use and where in the scale you happen to be. For example, the only place the pitch combination 1 3 5 b7 (where 1 is the root of the chord, 3 is a major 3rd above the root, 5 is a perfect 5th above the root, and b7 is a minor 7th above the root) appears in the major scale is on the fifth scale degree - in the key of C Major, that chord is G B D F.

A chord at any point in a piece of music, among other things, tells you what pitches will work at that point in the piece. It's a shorthand way of expressing the harmony in effect at that moment. And it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

But without being able to see your PDF document I don't know what you're thinking.

Sorry, an edit I made broke the link If you still want to look at it, it should work now. Thanks for pointing out.

I really like the words you've put together. They make a very concise description.

Those are all conventional chord voicings in your sheet - Dm9, G13, Cmaj9, etc. - but guitarists can't always include all the chord tones (usually can't). What is Alez'es question?

No question as such. I wanted to share what I've been doing lately and have any comments you may want to give.

I don't think it can help because it's for pianists, he needs basics, the way I learnt is easier and efficient, in less than a month he will be able to play basic efficient jazz comping on most of classic standards.
If it works for a dumb like me, it will work for everyone.

I'm familiar with the chord thing. I often practice common chord sequences using extended chords on the piano. In fourths, with 9ths, 13ths and so on.

Chord changes are what people respond to when deciding whether they like a piece of music. This is true even when listening to just a single voice play a solo line, as the harmony is either implied (if the line is composed well) or inferred by the listener (in all other cases).

You use "chords" (1st sentence above) and "harmony" (next sentence) like they are synonyms. I think chords are one (great and effective) way to convey harmony.

[alez]

Thanks for the various comments and tips on learning the piano "conventionally" so to say. I'm in fact doing it, with a great jazz piano teacher. This thread is just something different I've come with. It's not a "hi, I want to learn the piano" thread. For that, I would just comment on the "jazz piano thread" on this very subforum.

[2bornot2bop]

Thanks for the various comments and tips on learning the piano "conventionally" so to say. I'm in fact doing it, with a great jazz piano teacher. This thread is just something different I've come with. It's not a "hi, I want to learn the piano" thread. For that, I would just comment on the "jazz piano thread" on this very subforum.

Very good! To quote Bill Evans:

Knowing the problem is 90% of solving it.

Perhaps this is a question you should consider taking up with your teacher?

[alez]

Knowing the problem is 90% of solving it.

I can only agree

Perhaps this is a question you should consider taking up with your teacher?

We're in a long Christmas break but yes!

[alez]

I've now done a similar exercise using 3 voices on my right hand so my left hand can do bass. It leads to unusual voicings sometimes. For example VI7 (V-of-II) gets a b9th but no 7th. Overall, I like how it sounds. I should be able to spare a few minutes tomorrow and record a couple choruses.

[Mick-7]

Thanks for the various comments and tips on learning the piano "conventionally" so to say. I'm in fact doing it, with a great jazz piano teacher. This thread is just something different I've come with. It's not a "hi, I want to learn the piano" thread. For that, I would just comment on the "jazz piano thread" on this very subforum.

Now that I can see your pdf.... a chord is simply a collection of notes, all the voicings in your pdf are conventional chords, but you have misnamed some of them.

In your pdf you said: "Note that the root implied by the chord names does not apply here."

This is true of all chords, chords are often not in root position or don't contain the root of the chord. No offense, but there is nothing original about your thesis, it just displays an ignorance of jazz harmony, specifically the application of slash chords, e.g., your first chord would normally be named C6/D.

[alez]

No offense, but there is nothing original about your thesis, it just displays an ignorance of jazz harmony, specifically the application of slash chords, e.g., your first chord would normally be named C6/D.

Thanks for having a look at the PDF

Oh, I certainly don't know much jazz harmony, but I do know how to name chords. I should've left those weird chord names out, on the PDF I mentioned it's misleading and it clearly is. Your slash doesn't make sense because those 5-tone distributions are meant to be played over a bass. So once in context (with bass), this first chord will be C6.9 or Am.add11.

If you focus on the "name codes" I've come with hopefully that gives you the different (non chord-centric) perspective I'm trying to describe.

[alez]

So for example, first distribution of the second table, ignore the G7b9. Looking at the rightmost column, that's meant to form some E7 with a couple of altered 9ths or a Db7b9 with a lydian flavour. But since this is, deliberately, not about chords, I focus on the other name, this "Mb6" I used, which describes how the 5 voices are placed.

[alez]

Any bass note at all? You don't care what the bass player plays, you let him define the harmony? It's a musical lottery and he picks the winning ticket?

No, we all play the tune that's been called. In my experiment, if the tune has a E7 or a Db7, I play the same 5-voice thing I was talking about, this "Mb6". He plays E or Db with his fancy walking or whatever.

[Mick-7]

So for example, first distribution of the second table, ignore the G7b9. Looking at the rightmost column, that's meant to form some E7 with a couple of altered 9ths or a Db7b9 with a lydian flavour. But since this is, deliberately, not about chords, I focus on the other name, this "Mb6" I used, which describes how the 5 voices are placed.

It's still about chords, you're building chords from scales (dim. scale in this case), which is a common practice in jazz.

No, we all play the tune that's been called. In my experiment, if the tune has a E7 or a Db7, I play the same 5-voice thing I was talking about, this "Mb6". He plays E or Db with his fancy walking or whatever.

Then he is doubling one of the chord tones, which means he is defining the chord's character, maybe not in a good way.

[alez]

You are looking at these distributions from the perspective of the chords they make, which is fair enough but the exact opposite to my proposed way of looking at harmony this time.

[alez]

Then he is doubling one of the chord tones, which means he is defining the chord's character, maybe not in a good way.

On the "Mb6" example, no doubling takes place for a E or Db bass.

On many, there's doubling (one or two octaves apart), which is no big deal and indeed is done all the time. I know very nice and very common jazz voicings that include a root and / or a perfect fifth. In those, the pianists double, not the other way around as you said. Very common.

What do you mean not in a good way? My (imaginary) bassist is very proficient, he knows to play all the right changes.

[Mick-7]

You are looking at these distributions from the perspective of the chords they make, which is fair enough but the exact opposite to my proposed way of looking at harmony this time.

You're thinking in terms of scales, constructing chords from scales, correct? As I said, a common practice in jazz, the chord names are a formality for the benefit of those who are tasked to play the monstrosity.

The bassist can play any of these notes? - Db-D-E-G-B-F-Ab (G7b9). Heck, just let the poor guy have the entire diminished scale! (+Bb)

[alez]

You're thinking in terms of scales, constructing chords from scales, correct? As I said, a common practice in jazz, the chord names are a formality for the benefit of those who are tasked to play the monstrosity.

I see. These words make sense to me.

The bassist can play any of these notes? - D-G-B-F-Ab (G7b9). Which he plays can matter.

No, he was actually playing E as he landed on the 3rd measure of All of Me. Just like we all expected of him. He picked the winning ticket long ago when he chose instrument, but he's nice and predictable because he likes to continue being hired.

[alez]

Okay, different set of distributions, 3 voices so my left hand can play bass, this time it's more difficult for me to think them in real time because they're not related to the way I've been thinking on the trumpet for a long while now:
https://mega.nz/file/ncIi1aDR#LDTozv...mckWSl3052VR80

This time, all I've done is assign each of the 3 fingers a given range, then, for each chord, chose the notes inside the ranges.

I don't see that relating to scales like Mick said yesterday.